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All of the above
None, ogres are invincible!!!
Hello people after playing ogres for a while i have played some armies and suffered some pretty big wins and losses. these have been for a couple of reasons (outmanuvered, out gunned, ect...). I was wondering what the bane of your ogre armies existance.
i'd say all of the above, really. They are kinda shorthanded on all fronts.
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I find that if my opponent can outmanoeuvre me, he's won. Skink-heavy lists and all-cavalry lists annoy me no end.
Otherwise, I just find the lack of armour and units to be problematic. But if everyone's hitting something, then I don't tend to have a lot of problems.
lack of any real static combat res really hurts as well. Most armies without rank and file units have shooting or something to help thin down the numbers. Or they have cavalry to out maneuver, take out warmachines etc. We have magic for protection. That's it. With 7th edition emphasis on magic we're well behind the curve and our guys just don't stand up long enough. Fear, by itself will never cause anyone to run. There are way too many good fighting troops to combat WS3. Our "elite" troops are too expensive and have little to no protection as well and our characters are the same way. It's rough, but hey, we're ogres!
I'd say the main problem is being outgunned. Our leadbelchers only have 12in range, which is coincidentally also our charge distance. Effectively, it only has 6 inches more range than charging (since we can move and shoot), which barely qualifies it as shooting at all.
Gnoblars don't do enough, maneaters are too expensive to be solely a shooty unit, and although the scraplauncher is a lot of fun, it's a rare choice, so you'd have to give a gorger for each one you used, and I like the gorgers a lot (especially against shooty opponents).
I've also had a little trouble in close combat, especially against shooty opponents that dwindle my forces down before I reach them. They get their rank bonus, their standard bonus, and they'll probably outnumber me (if they whittled me down). This means I'll be 3-5 down to begin with, and I'll have to make up the difference from there.
Still, if I charge them with multiple units, gutmagic them up, cause some to run in fear, and possibly include a standard, I can still do well. I just have to plan accordingly. The shooty disadvantage is a little more pronounced.
charging into most combats I am already losing by 4 or 5 before wounds... outnumbered, out ranked, standards (which I can't afford) so I have to cause 5 wounds and hope he doesn't wound me back, which isn't too hard with the same toughness of an orc and less armour.
I charged my Bruiser and 4 bulls into combat against the empire on a 1k game, basic swordsmen with the mini flanking unit, I lost combat by 8... ran 5 inches and lost 400 points.
How about being stubborn.. that would be nice, half the dark elf army is stubborn and they have leadership 8 or 9 on average, while we are stuck with a mediocre 7 and lose most combats by 5 or more.. i don't understand why ogres are jumpier than something that is not as tall as it when two of them are standing on their shoulders..
i also took a scraplauncher in that game for fun, and it got cannon balled 3rd turn, after misfiring and just plain missing the first two turns.
And to the person who said Gorgers or Scraplauncher, aren't scraplaunchers a special choice? while gorgers are rare
Whoops, I was wrong, sorry. Alright then, if a scraplauncher is a special choice, then I say go for it. They're the best shooting the army has.
The problem I have is that they're really expensive in real $$$, and metal models are a pain.
I agree, close combat is a problem. The Ogres really need greater toughness and stubborn in order to be balanced against other armies. They simply start far too deep in the hole to win drawn out combats. They need to win the combat the same turn they charge, and the only way to consistently do that is to either be properly gut magicked up (difficult against magic heavy armies) or to hit the flank of the attacker (difficult against any army that uses calvary).
I still say long range combat is the biggest weakness because if we had more of it, we wouldn't have to rely so heavily on close combat. If leadbelchers had a little more range, or came a little bit cheaper, they might foot the bill. They're not bad, but like so many other ork units, they just aren't effective 'enough'.
I find the biggest issue in the games I play is a lack of armor choices. The lack basically making it pointless to take any of the armor options that we have. Almost all of my opponents that shoot disregard my light armored troops anyway (Dwarf Handgunners, str 4 Armor Piercing). Also, a decent roll of any warmachine shooting against MSU ogres can get a kill and cause Panic.
In light of all that. It's been a while since I've suffered a bad defeat (Anything worse than a draw in my opponents favor), and that is playing against new Chaos, new Vampires, Wood Elves, and Dwarves. I tend to have at least one unit or character that can must enough CC vitory points to swing everything to my favor when I get outdone in the other phases.
It's true, I can't remember being 'badly' beaten by anyone. I think the main advantage the ogres have, which makes it difficult for some opponents to fully deal with, is that the entire army moves incredibly quickly. It's not difficult for an opponent to defeat the ogres, but crushing them is difficult when they're charging directly into your ranks before the halfway point in the game.
It also comes down to 'how' armies crush other armies. At least from what I've seen, armies get crushed because of:
1. powerful cavalry/chariots
2. broken/running/destroyed units panicking other nearby units
4. overwhelming shooting advantage
5. overwhelming magic advantage
6. unstoppable heroes
Ogres aren't as badly affected by fear/terror, their Tyrants can stand up to most other heroes, their leadership is good enough [especially when using a Tyrant and BSB] to usually avoid getting panicked by other units, their ease in casting gut magic helps, and they can almost match the speed of most calvary/chariots.
The only way Ogres get seriously outmatched is from overwhelming shooting, especially ones with armor piercing, poison, and the ability to cause d3 wounds. That's why I consider it their main weakness.
Their second largest weakness is a lack of a rank bonus. Because of this, even goblins can stand up to Ogres as long as they get their rank bonus when calculating the resolution. You need to hit the block of troops from the flank, or you're going to be in trouble.
Last edited by mynameisgrax; December 15th, 2008 at 19:12. Reason: damn smilies
4 toughness and no/little armor means we mostly die to shooting.
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