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I have been told by a lot of veteran fantasy players that ogres are horrible. They never get ranks, cost a lot for each guy, and are super vulnerable to missile fire/war machines. I looked at the book and decided that they in fact seemed the exact opposite.
Gut magic is intense, the units are scary, and you get some absurdly powerful missile weapons yourselves. I was just wondering if all the downtalking the ogre kingdom was in fact sound.
Can't comment to much as my army has kinda been shelfed but from what i've heard yes they are arguably the worst army in the game but their badness is overrated. It's an uphill battle vs some armies but played right and with lucky rolls they can still win games. IMO their WS is abit low they get alot of attacks but don't hit that often and being constantly outnumbererd doesn't help when your not a killing machine! PLaying them well with alot of baiting/directing and flank charging is how they break even and win.
gut magic is the only thing that makes them playable unfortunatley . There too many armies S/T 4 now they don't quite have the edge they need, bad roles mean you don't have much of a chance. They still rock though, and tyrants are the man .
Against alot of armies Ogres can still be a real challenge to beat due to thier multiple wounds, stong characters, and hitting power. They have however never realy had an edge or dominanat period like newer release armies are getting and so often struggle against these types of armies (i.e. daemons, Vampire Counts, High Elves etc).
Against such armies on paper ogres seem to square up ok but on a board it becomes a different matter. the low leadership value and lack or ranks with mean theres a often 50% of failing panic rolls and if you bounce in combat that % is bound to jump up as you lack any real static combat res to support wounds caused.
Ogres were designed to get combat res through combat but at WS3 and S4 in todays game they are unlikely to produce enough damage to counter a 3 rank standard and outnumber static combat res of 5, before the enemy even attacks.
Due to the lack of staying power, it means the Ogre armies which do better are the niche types, often based around special characters like Skrag with multiple gorgers entering play, or Rhinox rider lists in which you need a supliment for the rules. But to play these armies is not to realy use ogres as intended and as such you miss out on alot of fun using them.
static combat res kills ogre armies
S4 T4 isn't as tough as what ogre fluff would make you believe. The whole idea of an ogre army is awesome, but under developed compared to other armies in warhammer. It takes good generalship to be competetive with ogres, because the statlines of ogres and the amount that you field isn't enough to win a battle.
The two best things about ogres are: I've never had my Tyrant bested in a challange... and gut magic is cheap and can be relentless if successfully cast.
This is truly sad indeed. Ogres are a formidable opponent if you know how to play them. Who says we dont get ranks? Why not play 5 ogres across? Thats a rank.... unless my math is off. Bait and run? WTF? I know that some like to play min size units but thats never seemed plausible NOR does it go with the fluff. Ogres are not a small unit kind of guy. Put 13 ironguts in a unit with a butcher and a tyrant........ Thats unit strength 45.. FORTY FIVE..... Unless your are facing rats or some other insane hoard army of the life, you are not going to be outnumbered. You guys are breaking all of this down like its quantum physics. Its a game people. Ogres are big, dumb, and hungry. Play them that way and you'll win. Play them like you would a strategic army and you....well you'll talk like you do now.
Armies to date:
2500 Ogre Kingdoms
2500 Tomb Kings
1500 Space MArines
I agree with OT, one of the best builds I've come across included a fat unit of 20 bulls that steamroll across the table eating anything in their way. He may have had 2 of such units, I can't remember, but I do remember that for a LONG time they were a very dominant force in our area.
http://www.armyroster.com Check out my ToP WIP in the projects section!
big units like that can and do work, but they are by no means flawless. by paying for 1 or 2 ranks on your ogre unit means you've paid 350+ points on models that aren't even going to fight. For the units point cost it does comparatively little damage. Also it will attract fire like anything, ogres are still only T4 with basically no armour against handguns and the like, and warmachines will just eat them. The reason these units work is cos bull charge hits automatically and they'll be about S6, so you get about 4 free CRes, but one charge in the flank by decent cavalry and you're unit is stuck for a turn with no support (which you're opponent will), or worse it will lose and break. I'm not saying its not a valid strategy, but the most I'd go with is 6 bulls and 2 characters, that way I can still have a fair sized army to protect it. Answering the question, they cost too much for what they do compared to other armies which fundamentally gives them a disadvantage. If they had a better save/cost less/ were stronger and tougher then any strategy would work on a level with the competition.
I've run a successful OK army for a while now and I rarely use Gut magic.
People tend to underestimate how fast they are, and they hit like a nuclear bomb on the charge. Even units with massed CRes aren't that bad for us, as we churn out a lot of attacks (at S6 for Ironguts). If you go for a "death star," that unit can be very hard to bring down and be devastating.
I find they're no worse than any other army if you can play them well, just like any other army. The difference is that they're harder to master.
I've only played 1000pt games with the Ogres but against High Elves, Empire, Brettonia and Forest Spirits (Wood Elves), they're doing great. And my opponents aren't bad; rather, playing Ogres really made me think.
Gut Magic, I have to say, is not a crutch for Ogre player. Sure, it's very useful, but Ogres are an army where you become a better general. There are no really "cheesey" lists and Ogres make you think over your tactics.
I'm sick of people whining about how bad Ogres are. Ogres cause Fear, they have multiple wounds, they cause impact hits; how are these bad things? People overrate how "terrible" Ogres are and, for me at least, some even presume that my list is cheese, as I play Ogres.
Armies: (Chaos) Space Marines [1250pts], O&G [2250 pts], OK [1000pts]
Da face of Mork looks down on the Gobbers of da Bwoo Moon, da bestest Gobbos eva.