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I assume by now we've all seen or heard the many rumours surrounding 8th edition of fantasy battle. A bunch of them seem more persistent than others, so I take it we can assume these particular rule changes have moved beyond rumour to reality (... or not?)
So what does this all mean for ogres in the new edition? What do we think we will be doing differently given the various shifts in tactics required? for example, will we begin to see units of 6 in 3x2 ranks with standard bearers become the norm? will bulls with hand weapon and ironfists replace ironguts as the unit of choice, or will the relatively poor initiative of the common ogre mean that striking last with a great weapon isn't as much of a disadvantage as it first appears? will gnoblars in units of 40+ start springing up? will the slaughtermaster, never fielded in my experience, become a must take character, or will the changes to the magic system make him redundant?
And apologies if this has all been covered off. I would really like everyone's input into what they see as the big changes.
Some quick things I've reliably heard from people that have read the new book:
= Stomp - Monstrous Infantry (ie Ogres, Dragon Ogres, etc). Single stomp attack at the end of combat (after ASL) - HIT at base Strength (note HIT not ATTACK).
= Monstrous Infantry - 3 wide for a rank, 6 wide for a horde. Full attacks from 2nd rank.
So, I would think 3x2 would be a pretty fearsome Ogre block, with all models getting their full attacks. Even scarier, 6x3, although quite expensive.
Add in impact hits and stomp attacks from the first rank, then full attacks from 2 rows (or 3 in the case of 6x3). Ouch.
For a start small units of 3 are no longer going to cut it. All those extra attacks, even if guys die (and especially with attacking at initiative order, regardless of who charges) mean you are basically silly not to take a second rank.
But where does that leave maneaters, yhetees, etc? They are expensive enough in units of 3, let alone in a unit of 6. Over 500 points for 6 maneaters, I don't think so! Though having said that, 4 maneaters plus a butcher and tyrant/bruiser with BSB may be the go ...
It also means tactics are going to be very different. a unit of 3 ogres (of whatever type) used to be US9 - well more than enough to cancel ranks on a rear or flank charge. But with the new rules that is no longer the case - so little units of 3 can fight, sure, but at initiative order, and they won't prevent the much larger enemy units from getting rank bonuses - and thus in most cases being stubborn against us.
The big advantage of ogres under 7th ed was our movement. 6" compared to 4 was phenomenal and meant we usually chose when and where to get the charge. But the shift to I based combat and charge distance being M+ 2d6" means we are only marginally better off than say a human or elf (old system charge 12" compared to 8", now an average of 13" compared to 11").
Also previously all the love was for ironguts over bulls because of great weapons and heavy armour. with low I anyway this may not be a huge issue, but should we soak the attacks and attack last or go the hand weapon and ironfist option to get an armour AND a ward save (admittedly only 6+) using bulls? With the sheer number of attacks coming our way in 8th edition, a 6+ ward save just might save an ogre or two.
Also, imminent FAQ not withstanding, where is our magic phase left? one dice casting, previously our biggest strength, may no longer cut it with the new rule that a failed casting attempt means no more spells from that particular mage (and a total of 1 of 2 on the dice, before adding your caster level, is an auto-fail).
I hope a lot of these concerns will be addressed by the FAQ and by me actually playing some games. I do wonder if, for example, ogres/large ogre-sized creatures should have been given something more, such as an additional rank behind the front rank being worth +2 rank bonus (given cost of models and depth of bases, etc). Frankly, I see myself taking a heck of a lot more gnoblars now than I used to, and for some reason that doesn't excite me very much!
I think that our scraplauncher has gotten relatively better with the new addition. It cannot be auto-killed by S7 attacks anymore. Its template can now be placed down on the field before scatter, so it is much more accurate. Whereas other rock lobbers have had their strength reduced and no longer ignore armor saves to compensate for this, Scraplaunchers were already a lower strength and never ignored armor. They will however, still have killing blow, making them in many ways better than an average rock lobber.
I think generally it is a change for the better for ogres. Before we had to have a unit of 3 bulls, 4 ironguts, and another core; now we can take 1 unit of 6 bulls and a unit of 6 ironguts. Basically fewer bigger core units is good. On the other hand, more, smaller special choices is my favorite part; I'm gonna try out 4 units of 2 leadbelchers to keep up a continuous volley of shooting and fleeing/re-loading plus it's only 100 odd points if it goes wrong. I'm not worried too much about maneaters, they're still stubborn and you might see more cathayan longswords for In. Musicians giving reforms still lets us abuse our movement, we can rearrange our whole battle line on the 1st turn and leave the enemy guessing. Magic is a bit sucky, but now we don't even need to take a butcher to have magic defence so we can have more bruisers.
as for our magic phase being nerfed from 1 spell die now being real dangerous its not as bad as you think, we'll be generating more power die overall in smaller lists i would think, where u would normally only have 1 or 2 butchers, u can now get away with 1, and put ur points elsewhere. I'm gonna try only 2 characters in small games too make room for a few more ogres, specially since we can punch from rank 2. By the way its liimited 3 attacks from second rank, so use IFs as shields or Ironguts mainly.
I'm trying out a slaughtermaster / tyrant combo tonight.... it would seem as though the slaughtermaster can do the work of two butchers with only a small increase in cost over one.... (if not loaded down with items of course)
one dispel scroll per army is going to hurt a bit with magic getting a boost...
I think 3x2 is going to be very common now.... and the common magic items really help our army out! (don't forget for the price of a couple gnoblars you can give a whole unit a ward save vs. warmachine attacks!) I'm loving the heavy armor with the 4+ ward save idea... but also the combo of mawseeker and the trickster's helm seems pretty awesome (oh sorry, I'm toughness 6 AND you have to reroll successful wounds - good luck with that!)
BSB giving rerolls to all tests + mawseeker seems awesome! (jade lion for free!)
a minimal point item that makes me immune to my first miscast????
and it's finally nice that everyone else gets to enjoy a brutal miscast table too!
Using the Mawseeker sounds awesome and giving toothcraker to the unit with mawseeker will make them toughness 6!!!!!
just sit there and shrud off all str 3 weapons LOL!!!!!
I agree you will see lots more 3x2 units of especially bulls as you might strick first. I think a slaughter master is enough in 1000pts and a tyrant and slaughter master in 1500+.
But "Jack Shrapnel" whats a trickster's helm? anyone help plz?