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can bulls have 2 iron fists and if so would they have 4+ armour save if they had light armour
all i have is the battalion and a brusier how should i equip them and what should i get next
is it worth giving the units standards , musicians and champions
and my main question , are the magic items and standards values added to the point value of the unit or character
what magic items and/or bignames should i give to my bruiser
To answer your first question: ogres can't have two ironfists. They can, however, have a 4+ save in combat. If you buy them an iron fist, and choose to use it as a shield in combat, you now have an ogre armed with a handweapon (you lose your ogre club if you use an ironfist, so it now just counts as a normal handweapon) and a shield. As we all know, a model armed with a handweapon and shield gets an additional +1 to his armor save, giving you a 5+, and when combined with light armor, gives you a 4+. Note that this save is only in combat, and you have a 6+ save against shooting.
As far as what I'd recommend buying next... more bulls is always a good choice, iron guts comming in a close second. I'd strongly recommend not buying any characters at this point. Every character in my army is a converted bull ogre. You'll save ALOT of money this way, as all the ogre characters are rather expensive (most being $35+). I'd convert up a butcher first, then probably a hunter or two. Beyond that, more gnoblars would probably come next, followed by yetis (i refuse the spell it their way) and then perhaps a gorger. Also, instead of buying the stupid metal gnoblar trappers, I'd just use the plastic ones and do some minor converting.
In my opinion, I'd never buy any command for ogres except musicians. One of their major weaknesses is their leadership, so having a musician is a cheap way to improve it. You get to win ties in combat, and get +1 to any rally attempts. Champs are too expensive for the additional attack. Their only real use it to accept/issue challenges so your other characters (tyrants/bruisers) can pound on rank and file guys instead of getting stuck only killing champs. Standards, again, are too many points for the +1 combat res. Plus, if your unit get beat in combat and runs, you'll lose your standard and give the opponent 100 extra VPs for capturing a standard. Ogre units are expensive enough as it is without giving up additional victory points the enemy.
When buying magic items equipped by a character, the points come from his magic item allowance (100 for tyrants, 50 for bruisers/butchers) and are included with his point total. The only magic items that get added to a unit are magic standards.
For your bruiser I'd recommend this set-up:
Bruiser - Heavy armor, Cathayan Longsword, and Fistful of Laurels - 159pts
This keeps his cost down, gives him a 5+ armor save, and 4 attacks at WS 6, ST 5, and with a -3 armor save modifier. He also gets to strike at IN 4, so he gets to go before most normal infantry. There aren't really any other magic items that are that great to give him, and most of the big names arent really that good either. The only one I might consider giving him is Longstrider, so he'd have movement 7. You could use that to charge him out of the unit unexpectedly to kill something like a mage, general, warmachine or some similarly squishy unit. You'll also be able to pursue and flee 3d6 instead of the normal 2d6 if the need ever rises.
Hopefully some of my rambling will help you out. I think after I get a few more games under my belt this weekend, I'll write a tactica for Ogres to help you and some others out a little more. Thanks for your post!
Khaazen covered everything really well, and the only thing I want to really do is enforce the notion of the musician. You'll be fine running a unit without a champ or standard, but with their leadership, the +1 to rally from the bellower is a big help.
Ya the champ isn't much of an upgrade, course they can often win duels against other armies full on characters. And I find that I usually either really win, or really loose a combat with my ogres, so the standard bearer isn't a huge deal, but rallying sure is nice after you do loose.
Also I agree that the best corse is to covert bulls for most of your characters, but I don't see how to convert the hunter (well the hunter's doable, but then where do you get the cats?) That's the 1 character I bought.
Course my opinion is kinda rockly with only a few small battles under my belt. (I'm up to bout 1000 pts now, my armies far from done.)
Votewar MKV 2nd place. . .
Back from internet limbo, and glad to be here.
Hopefully I can post some pictures this weekend so you guys can see the tyrant I converted to get some ideas. Alot of times even seeing a poor conversion (i.e. mine) can give you alot of ideas to do your own.
I haven't actually completed a hunter yet, but I have alot of ideas. GW sells his giant crossbow thingy as a bit, so for like $2 you have piece that can really help define the model. That cats will run you $5 total each in bits, but there are quite a few of none GW models out there. Hopefully I'll get some time to make a list up and post it here. The GW cats aren't too bad though, and I suppose $5 each for metal figs the size of a horse isn't completely out of line.
thanks alot mate thats really useful , u know ur stuff
are u sure u acn use the heavly converted characters in a battle
Absolutely, as long as the figure accurately represents the unit you are using, and is on the correct base size, noone should have any problems. In fact, most players appreciate converted models more than just using standard figures. It shows that you actually care about the appearance of your army and are willing to go the extra mile. Plus it saves you money in most cases.