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A bruiser is needed for a butcher and a Tyrant is needed to field a slaughtermaster. Therefor it is likely that in a 2000pts list there will only be 1 butcher, that means only 4 power dice and only 3 dipell dice, thats what i call an extreme lack in the magic department!
I can create a chaos army of Tzeench with FOURTEEN power dice..... and an ogre army with FOUR powerdicce and only 3 dispell dice, a 2000pt ogre list is unlikely to cast any spells and unlikely to dispell any enmy spells.... surely that has to be the biggest disadvantage in the warhammer world..that needs to be re-written because frankly it is a pile of crap.
Eh? You do not need a bruiser for a butcher. Butchers cast on a 3+ and my 2000 point army fields one with a bangstick, that's 5 spells a turn and I have been succesful against many opponents in casting (not all mind you).Originally Posted by HowlingBanshee
If you want to succesfully shut off an ogre's spell, you have to put 2 dice to my 1. Taking a single dice is a 50/50 chance, and this is very dicy. Oncew the spells hit play, they bump up to 7.If I field a second butcher, this gets even better.
Defensively, I find the ogres to have a few goodies IMO.The thief stones are a great treat, great skulls will get even better with the new miscast table. The Hellheart is nice piece too. The Runemaw banner shuts down any spell to hit a crazy amount of gnoblars.
Lastly, half the Tzeench spells are highly unreliable du to thier random nature. You can have 14 dice, but your opponent needs to worry about only 2 spells.
just because i have tzeench units for the power dice doesnt mean i ahve to have tzeench wizards... for the very reason that an exalted champ for 100pts is the same LD as an exalted sorcerer so the champ can be ur general with undevided alowing u to have sorcerers with 1 mark and units with another.....
, actualy i see what you mean in 2000pts you coudld have a tyrant and field a butcher but its the fact that you can only use a lv4 wizard in 3000points that bugs me.... even if the spells are cast on 3+ the enemy is liekly to have as many dispell dice as you have power dice which is a cripple no other army suffers from..... unless you count dwarves who dont have magic...but dwarves can get lots of dispell dice while ogres ahve barely any and once your oppont realises taht 1 of ur units has MagicResistaance 3 tehy will just use thier magic on another unit!
True, but that other big unit as a runemaw banner ! All the items I mentioned are there just for that. if you play with most of them, what ever your opponent will target, he will have a hard time! (unless he goes for that 48 unit of gnoblars of course)Originally Posted by HowlingBanshee
You also have to think that alot of spells don't affect ogres half as much has other troops. Spells such as flames of the pheonix or the curse of years. D6 missiles only tickle, and you will have to roll high with a 2D6 spell to cause a panic. Only a handful of spells with really hurt the ogres.
If you want a magic oriented army with ogres go for Skragg. Lv 4 slaughtermaster, throw in 2 butchers, and have some fun. Cast all those 3+, 6+ spells all day.
Lastly, ogres aren't about using magic, it's just to have a presence in both magic phases.
Last edited by Wolf_Pack; June 5th, 2006 at 02:03.
a mistake on my part i did not realise taht skrag was a slaughter master.....ive not played a single game yet (as ogres) and i didnt read that through very well.
That's what discussion is for right ? Nearly everytime I scroll through the post on the various forums on LO, I find out something that I either misread or didn't know.Originally Posted by HowlingBanshee
A a side note, you seem excessively angry about an army you've neither ever played a game with nor read the book completely.
Every army has disadvantages, but there is nothing in the rules that says you can't field three butchers in a 2000 point list, and at 130 points a piece, that's about on par with the cost of Chaos Sorcerers, and a good deal cheaper than tzeentch sorcerers. All you're really missing out on is the Tzeentch spell dice... which frankly is Tzeentch's specific advantage.
So, in that case, you'd have 8 spell dice, and all of your spells cast at 3+... 5 dispel dice.
You can't really compare to Tzeentch as your benchmark, it's one of the three Magic Lists (along with Slaan and High elves). A better comparison is with Dogs, Empire, Wood Elves, Chaos Dwarfs, etc... to which you fair quite well. OR Khorne, Dwarfs, etc, that you do well against.
Everything isn't doom and gloom, and I really don't think the bok qualifies for a 'rewrite' based on this.
I'm been thinking, wondering why a lot of people say that Ogre's suck when they seem perfectly fine to me. (Though in my Warhammer Fantasy Noobieness my opinion on this matter is sevierly limited in credability.)
Anyway my thought is that most players who find Ogres lacking, either themselves have incorrect expectations of the army, or play against Ogre players with false expectations, and play according to them.
It's easy to do, you think Ogre, you thing big strong and stupid. One would expect an Ogre army to be a brute force army. Charge up the lines and crush the enemy. This is not the case.
Ogres are quick moving, fragile, but hit hard. In other words, dispite appearances, they are a finesse army. Strong in CC, everything they have is versitile: Their warmachine is a chariot that has a powerful charge, their shooty units are good in CC. Thier cannon fodder melee units have a shooting attack. Their wizards (Butcher) are good in CC. Individually they may well be weaker than their opponents, but the synergize well.
Ogres have limited magic, but it has powerful effects on the abilities of Ogre units.
They may have limited dice, but each die counts for more: spells cast easy, and they have several ways to supliment their magic defence beyond that wich the Butcher provides.
I guess I'm just worried that you're not going to like Ogres all that much. The principal of diminished returns very much applies to Ogre magic: A little goes further than the same amount for another army, but adding more doesn't do much for you: Repeating spells get more expensive. Most of the spells are unit upgrades that don't stack with each other. I don't think it's wise to do a magic oriented Ogre army, even though it is possable, expecially using Skragg.
If you're looking for a Finesse CC army with a lot of personality, Ogres are very likely for you. But if you're looking to play the magic game for the win I suspect that you'll be hard pressed to find a worse army for the job.
Wow that was longer then I ment to go, but I believe it's true, I hope it helps.
Votewar MKV 2nd place. . .
Back from internet limbo, and glad to be here.
There's something very wrong with that statement. You only need a Vruiser or Tyrant to be your General. (And you need a Tyrant to field a Slaughtermaster). So, you can easily take 3 Butchers and a Tyrant for your characters in 2k. That's 6 levels, 8 dice minimum.Originally Posted by HowlingBanshee
And Wolf_Pack, remember that the Runemaw can't redirect the spell to a character carrying Thiefstones (Well, it can, but since the spell is reflected after it's been let through, it'd be suicide for the character.). There's still use for it - take a BIG unit of Gnobs (Over 24. Those 24 cost you one Irongut) and redirect the spells to them. Cannon Fodder at it's best ^^
Use Light, Beasts, Metal instead of Heavens
NecroLords: Use at least one Death Mage
Brets: Use Peasants&Damsels
Skaven: Don't use Skryre SAD
Never said to do so, as you said the spell need be cast to be rebound.Originally Posted by Teron