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Three things. First off, my two usual opponents are O&G and Dwarfs. We also have a new player who is going to play Empire. So I ask, are Pikemen worth it? I am having some trouble killing off Dwarfs, and O&G swarm me and flank me. So I'm thinking that maybe I could buy 2 boxes of the new Empire State Troops and build Pikemen out of them. Pikemen are useful because they can fight in four ranks even if they are the chargers, and always strike first, so I'm thinking that a nice chunky unit of 20 would be good for covering my flanks against O&G and good for charging big units of Dwarfs. Do you think it's worth it? Or is there something else I should get.
And the second question is, Why in the world would you give Bulls additional hand weapons when for one more point per model you can get Ironfists?
Third, I know you lose the Ogre Clubs benefit if you use Ironfists. Does the same apply if you use Additional Hand Weapons?
Lastly, I usually give my Bulls Ironfists and Light Armor. Are Bulls as useful without any extra equipment, or is the LA+IF worth it? And if I do take 'naked' Bulls, should they be in small units (cheap) or big ones (cheap but powerful)?
Last edited by catbarf; January 5th, 2007 at 20:56.
My primary opponent has been dwarves and now we have brets and chaos in the mix. Hands down against dwarves especially Iron breakers and the like I use naked bulls. The ogre club armor piecing (giving a -2 total to armor saves rather than a -1) is much better than the aditional attack.
I have found additionally that naked bulls are about as effective as light armor and iron fist for defense as most the the armies I have fought negat my armor save anyway. For defense nothing beats Toothcracker and Troll guts, especially TG.
Also don't for get that toothcracker adds stubborn to the unit so when facing blocks of infantry like dwarves it can help fold them up better than a standard vs infantry block armies like dwarves. Helps prevent your flanks from crumbling too.
Somethign that I have found helpful is if I see I am going to get charged I cast Toothcracker or troll guts (depending on where my general is) on the unit. If I am charging with the bulls and going to get impact his I cast bullgorger to maximize that alpha strike. and then on the next round a defensive spell.
I will say this though afainst a shooty army like bret and empire archers, the light armor and ironfist can really help you save some wounds getting in there (save at 5+). But really nothing compares to your two gut magic defense buffs.
Also speaking of dwarves and magic I've taken to using 2-3 butchers or slaughtermasters depending on the point size, to use magic at all you need at least 2 more casting dice than he has dispels. Bangstick can help with that some as well. As it is free so his choice is to dispel it or take the chance on damage.
I am still a young player (only 4 months and maybe 12 games under my belt so hopefully all that is said right.
Welcome to LO, catbarf and skitzoid. Good to have some ogre players around.
I'm pretty sure that you can't use ironfists against missile fire, just in close combat.
I'm an Ogre player with limited experience, too, but the guy at our store who plays them regularly says that additional handweapons are the way to go. Pounding in with extra attacks really hurts, but I see your point with the ironfists since they can serve as shields or extra weapons.I don't think pikemen are worth it. I've played a fair number of games against them, and they're easy to kill and strength 3 attacks pretty much stink against high toughness/armor opponents. Why not use gnoblars for a whole heck of a lot less to protect your flanks?Originally Posted by from the temp FAQ
Naked bulls in small units have been most useful to me. With enough ogre magic to back them, they're pretty darned good. If they die, no great loss. There are more elsewhere.
Well, a uit of 7x4 Pikemen weighing in at 280 points has thre full ranks and will get 21 attacks on the charge, 28 defending. Not bad, even if they are S3.
Why not just proxy some for a few games and see what you think before you commit to converting them?
I guess for me, points are so scarce for Ogre units that it's hard for me to spend them elsewhere. But I can see where mercenaries fit in perfectly with Ogres since they do so much mercenary work anyhow.
i'll try and answer your questions best i can.
If you use anything other than just the ogre club then yes you lose the benifit of having one. But you can always opt to use the club instead of the AHW or ironfist.
The reason you use an additional handweapon over an ironfist is simple. The ironfist gives you a 6+ save at the cost of 1 extra point over AHW. a Save which doesnt apply to ranged attack. Plus you have to choose each turn wether to have a (useless) 6+ save or an additional attack. You'll choose the extra attack everytime so saving 1 pt a model is your best bet. And on that note never ever give bulls light armor. Waste of points trust me on that. a 6+ save wont save jack as most opponents will strike you with str 4+ attacks to get through your Hight T. Str 4 or up negates the 6+
So naked bulls with additional handweapons is your best bang for the buck.
As to unit size. in my OK army i run pretty much all ogres in units of three. Anything less then 5 will only need one casualty to cause a panic test and you will NEVER get a full 5 frontage ogre unit to hit with all its attacks (4 takes some planned positioning to get them into base to base). so my advice. run a unit of three. 12 attacks at str 4 is pretty nasty.
Looking for help with your Ogre kingdoms. Need help against them? have burning questions about life or why Dave's Avatar is so creepy. Feel free to stop by and ask OverTyrant Loki
Loki, good points all but I will disagree with only one thing and that is whether or not to always use an additional hand weapon. This only comes up because I end up battling highly armored opponets frequently (dwarves, brets, etc). and really perhaps this equals out but here goes.
Basicly it comes down to the damage potential in 9 attacks with a -2 to armor (ogre club and st4)
12 attacks at -1 (st 4 only)
WS sucks on ogres anyway (ws3) which means a 4+ will hit on most opponents so hypotheticly speaking using straight percentages about 50% would "hit"
so that would be 4.5 and 6 attacks respectively.
to wound at strength 4 (usually against toughness 3) you need I believe 3+ ( no book in front of me) so that leaves 66% of the hits wound.
so that would be 3 (2.97 rounded to 3) and 4 (3.96 rounded up)
so now the big point, armor lets use 2+ as a worst case as but knights and many dwaves reach this pretty easily)
so out of the 9 attacks 3 wound at -2 armor save which means they save on a 4+ which results in 1.5 hits.
where as the 12 attacks resulting in 4 wounds save at 3+ meaning 1.32 attacks are able to get through.
so 1.5 hits verses 1.32 hits doesn't seam like much but that extra wound can mean a the differenace between winning or loosing in CR.
Granted all this is against heavy armor against light armor units, I agree that you take the extra hand weapons everytime, but against anything with say a 4+ armor save or better ( meaning 2 or 3+) then the ogre club cleary wins because not only is there greater damage potential but also saved points for more gnoblars.
Hopefully that is all correct because thats been my thought process for bull unit design the as I have been playing but I am biased because I face a lot of heavy armor units. If I am wrong please correct me because I am always looking for ways to better my design and tactics.
True, you are correct in your math, but there is another consideration. Ironfists- for one point more, you get the ability to have a 5+ save against those very lethal knights an AHW won't be so good against. Combine with light armor (which isn't useful on its own) and you have a 4+ save. Not bad at all. True, you don't get to use the clubs, but it makes you a lot tougher.
Unless I am mistaken Leather armor and iron fist only provide a 5+ armor save.
David, what I have found is a couple things, one I try to isolate 1 of the knight units with a large block of trappers from the flank (like 20 trappers) they aren't there to do much more than slow the unit down for a round or two and then run after somethign else but it allows you to set up better.
One tactic I am trying out this weekend is a large block of 6 naked bulls and a leader (for the leadership) acting as bait with tooth cracker on them (for stubborn) If what I expect to happen occurs then they will recieve a big charge and absorb it while hopefully standing their ground. If they hold I have 2 blocks of Ironguts to hit him in the flanks.
Should he go after the ironguts, that unit will flee and the bulls will get the charge. This is against Brets against a very aggressive player.
Troll guts can also save you a lot of hits. BUt Bait and switch tactics seem to work pretty well on brets because they have to charge something so when you have a line of 3 units which ever one he charges flees and then the rest get their charges while the flee'er rally'ies.
I don't know much about chaos, only fought them onces and they fell really fast to poor leadership fear rolls.