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I've been trying to figure out the best formation for my bulls in an army.
I've had some _reasonable_ success with multiple small units (2 blocks of 4, 1 block of 5 and my tyrant/bruiser w/ one of the 4s + 3 ironguts). It gives a lot of support for each unit.
However, we were discussing Ogres at the store the other day (after another slaughter from a DE with 2 bolt throwers, unit of crossbows, dragon, manticore and hydra) and it was brought up that someone won a GT with Ogres with 2 big blocks of ogres (was 2 blocks of 8 i think was said)
I was curious as to if anyone has seen the list that was used, or if you have
had better experience with MSUs or blocks.
Thanks in advance,
I'm going to try the big block idea as I've had limited success with MSU. I use 2 or 3 units of bulls, with only 3 models each and a musician. Then 4 ironguts with at least a musician. But I keep losing. :cry:
I'm curious about using large blocks, but they're so hard to deploy and maneuver.
Well, I haven't run a strict OK army, but I did run a ogre-cavalry army in 6th edition for a while. With 2 ranks of 4, you could get +1 rank bonus, which was reasonably hard to remove due to the extra wounds/model. However in 7th edition, 5 wide ranks are too expensive for me.
Lessee: thoughts on blocks of 8 in 7th edition.
Pros: harder to panic, will definately have some models left by CC. if fielded 4X2, reasonably maneuverable, and the bull charge becomes viable. also in two ranks, it is much harder to flank-destroy you with a small cav unit, because you have more attacks and wounds on your flank.
Cons: If 4X2, more susceptible to loosing big chunks of your army to rank penetrating shots from cannons. If 1X8, unwieldy and easily killed with a flank charge, and flank cannon shots could be really nasty. Fewer units on table, which makes it easier for you to be out-deployed or out-maneuvered. And your army will probably be more core-choice-centric, as I don't see people fielding anything but bulls in 8's.
Arena of Death Champion: Nexim of the Guldskullz Tribe. Fear my wrath!
In my Ogre army I run a big unit of 8 Ironguts with Full command + warbanner. These are then accompanied by a Tyrant tooled up to the teeth and Jade Lion for psychology tests, and a Bruiser BSB. This means that when the unit hits you get 3 S5 and 2 S6 impact hits, 10 attacks from ironguts, and 9 from the chracters. You then have a rank, probably outnumber, standard, warbanner, and battlestandard.
So generally that's a massive combat res in your favour and being fear causing, you'll break your enemies, or beat other units by so much they'll need double 1 to stay.
Knowing full well that loosing this unit would mean a big bad points wise, the Battlestandard gives the re-role of breaktests.
I then have 2 butchers in units of 3 Ogre Bulls each to either side of the Ironguts and I try to give boost the big unit with toothcracker, as they will then always be Ld 9 from tyrant and getting to re-role this.
One thing I have learnt from fielding this is that this unit will inevitably take a lot of fire, so getting trollguts on them early helps. Having this huge unit also means your smaller units are usually ignored. I then stick Yhetees, or units of 2 Leadbelchers, or Slave Giant on either flank to protect from fast movers and skirmishers. One thing you should remeber when using these big units is to keep their flanks covered (which i do with the bulls with butchers) and never ever show your flank to artilley that goes through ranks unless you're in combat.
Just to show you how hard this unit can be, just today I went through a unit of 15 Inner Circle Empire Knights with Ludwig and Kurt Helborg in a single turn of combat.
Hope this helps!
(This is an edit. Didnt know the diagrams wouldnt line up when the program snaped my font to fit forum size. so everything you are about to see is wrong :oP)
The big blocks of ogres have too many weaknesses...
They have no staying power... I know everyone is like Tough4 3x Wounds and you can give em armor!!!!111oneoneone However... The best Ld they can get is 9, and the best you can do with that is re-roll a failed break test.
They are not manuverable. Long front = long wheels = losing.
No expendable units. If every one of your units is expensive, you spend the game protecting them and playing conservatively. That doesnt work for ogres.
It seems you have not been shown how to play MSU ogres. Ill do my best to represent in this little box of text....
When you deploy, you want it to look like a checkerboard almost like so
+++ +++ +++ +++ ||
+++ +++ +++ ||
+++ +++ +++ ||
those + = one ogre. Now the way it works, is you take a few squads of bulls naked with a club and run them up in front to force opponents into unfavorable charges.
| | <---- troops
Iron Guts Iron Guts
(Optional Iron Guts)
This is a basic example of the most basic MUS strat. They are forced to charge the bulls, if you hold, you may inflict one or two wounds before you get run over. They persue... flanked by two guts and hit in the front. If they persue alot, they run into more guts and get flanked by guts. If they dont persue, they get charged by guts. You can of course position your bulls to force them to charge at awkward angles
And then just get one unit of great weapon guts on the flank to win combat almost assuredly.
The whole army feeds off of sacrificing bulls to get off severly stacked charges. Just remember, even though bulls are ogres, they dont not kill much compared to the guts. Some people swear by them, but the numbers just dont add up.
You can choose to go magic heavy with 3 butchers and a tyrant. Or dro pthe butchers and just have a swarm of iron guts. MSU ogres is very competative. It just takes alot of practice to get right. You dont have to worry about expensive units getting flanked because they are almost all expendable... but still have great weapons... so they are awesome AND expendable. omg I love ogres. anyways. You have a VERY manuverable army seeing as how your wheel arc is low... and you take up the entire board so they have nowhere to run to or try and wrap around. It just solves alot of problems doing it this way.
I hope these little diagrams at least help a little. It was very late when I typed this so it may be scatterbrained and I apologize... but I think you will be able to get out of it what I intended :oP GL with the ogres!!!
PS: I lost almost every game with my ogres untill i learned MSU.
Last edited by Illishan; May 11th, 2007 at 08:12.
When all else fails... charge it with a Tyrant.
I play one big unit of Iron Guts with chracters flanked by friendlies to protect those flanks. I like to send Bulls into units and have toothcracker on them. Stubborn with re-roles from BSB makes them a pain in the ass and the Giant can then hit home.
When playing with one large unit all you have to do is find the unit that will hurt your enemy the most and deploy opposite it. That way you are dictacting where he will deploy the rest of his army. Not to mention the psychological impact of seeing a unit of 10 Ogres facing you.
P.s. I win the majority of my games with them :shifty:
If you opponent is playing with a 15 man IC knights then yes you will win. If you are playing against Rats, you might not. All it takes is to take out 1 of the butcher units, and your flanks will be exposed.
at 2000 pts, any army has enough firepower or magic to eat through 13 wounds in 2-3 turns.
Then your opponent sets you up against a jobber unit, and you be stuck. Even if you put your caracters on each end, your opponent will take on the BSB's flank. With a 5 man frontage, and if you put your characters on each end, you can get charged and miximise a 20mm base unit without your tyrant being involved. A challenge happens, and if the bruiser refuses, no BSB for you.
Also the MSU demonstration was very well thought out, but here's a catch. Why do I have to charge? I'll just pivot my units to deny a flank and stay there. Your bulls block your own unit from charging me, and if you do Charge me with those they'll bounce off. I won't pursue. You'll cause panics to your own models by running through them.
And sadly, An ogre army can't play chess games too long. 8 out opf 10 armies you'll face will have more firepower and offensive magic than you do.
Your best option is to field units of 5 Guts to front hammer, and 3 man bulls along the flanks. You will have to Crush a flank. But don't start of the bat by deploying your big hammer units. Drop 2 squads of gnoblars, some shock bulls and guts in the middle. They can always fan out left or rear to crush the weaker flank.
Even if your opponent see the flank crush coming, he won't have time to manouver out of it. This is where the speed we get makes us a whole lot more successful than a hordes of chaos army with this tactic.
Also, always bring at least 1 gorger to the table. 75 for pure shooting disruption, or tie up a unit that would other coutner charge and crush your tyrant's unit. Great value. 2 would even shine out more.