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Been gone a while but I've noticed that it seems you are still having problems with your ogres and specifficly your skragg army and I have to agree after reading many of your comments both in the past and more recent about skragg and Santa to an even greater extent. I don't think have a place in anything smaller than 3k. He needs things to distract attention away from Skragg like Rhinox and such. at 2k he is 1/4 the army and subject to cannon balls and targetting...
Have you tried the MSU army that was posted for one of the GT's a while back. I made a variation of it for tourneys here (we play 2250 ) and have had a LOT of success. My one loss thus far (in 6 or 7 games) was to a freak Bret Magic army in which the fey enchantress opened that shodow pit under my tyrant and he got sucked away to oblivion.
Here is what I am running currently, might try proxying it in and trying it gives opponents fits because there is so many ogres everywhere.
tyrant (tenderizer, HA, jadelion, mawseeker, wyrdstone neck)
3 butchers (1 bangstick one dispel)
Up until I started playing with variations on this I was having a lot of trouble, won the last tourny with 2 annialations. Just something to think about.
One of the things i have done with some success with skragg is stick him in a unit of Maneaters so that he takes on their stubborness and simply dropping troll guts on the unit makes it very strong but also insanely expensive.
I am playing in a 3k tourny in which I am taking the above army and tweaking it some to accomidate skragg, at that level I think he can be tremendously helpful. here is what I am thinking about right now for it:
tyrant (tenderizer, HA, Longstrider, Gutmaw, wyrdstone neck)
2 butchers (1 bangstick one dispel)
Bruiser (BSB + Rag Banner)
2 maneaters (with skragg and BS
2 Rhinox (with tyrant)
I think this can be successful, as it will be hard to concentrate only on Skragg. I just don't see how he can e successful in lower point games especially when so many points are starting off the table (in gorgers)
Just some thoughts, don't want you to lose hope though.
Thanks for the ideas. That list sure is character heavy! Do you find that the magic compensates for the points in characters?
My Ogres are currently in storage in Texas where I'm moving in a few weeks, but they're still on my mind as I play around for a good way to use them.
Both army lists are hero hammer lists. I agree they have and will always have their share of success. But truth be told, there are alot of factors to it. Playing an army like it is just as effective has bring out a new army. No one had sufficient experience against the standard army, and let alone against the hero hammer version. The effect of suprise only lasts so long.
It gives out the same effect has the first time you play against a wood elf army without elves save for wardancers. All skirmish. What do you do?
Player have generally never had to face an army the brought 3 butchers. Even veterans have little to no clue of what the ogore magic is capable of.
To top it, if anything, 3 butchers is very under cost effective IMO. unless they are confined to the shame 6" area, they won't get the spells you want off.
I don't know if you or your opponents have noticed, but none of your caracters get the look out sir roll. Something has stupid as a goblin army that notices it, will take your characters with mere spear chukkas. 2 turns of reasoable shooting and your tyrant can bite the dust. Happened to me.
Once the 2 close combat heroes are out, the list has no more backbone. That's how I see it.
Let me caveat this by saying I am not saying by any means that I am an expert or am trying to tell someone how to play. All I am saying is what has worked for me and the style I run with.Heck I've only been playing warhammer since November and only started understanding the intricacies of the army the last couple months.
Well from my experience thus far my regular opponents (dwarves, VC, Brets and Chaos) are all used to the 3 butcher format and are still trying to get a handle on them.
I'm not real sure why you call it a hero hammer army (maybe just the character count) but the ironguts are what do the damage, everything else is there to direct opponents into them. I usually deploy something like this (though the way my opponent deploys acan modify things and so can terrain)
Yet - IG -IG( ----Gnob - bull -B- bull - Gnob ----IG( -IG - Yet
Tyrant joins the IG unit across from his general or strongest unit.
Gorgers either go warmachine hunter or flank/rear attack units to hold them still.
These all opperate as 3 individual units....each group mutually supporting each other with heavy useage of Toothcracker.
If I believe I am going to get charged I toothcracker the likely units so they hold for my other units to counter attack. If I am the one charging it is either Trollguts or bullgorger depending.
This provides for a lot of flexibility and the opponent cannot queue up on any individual unit . Also few units will ever not be able to recover from panic 3 person ogre team that panics with the loss of one 2 ogres is still at 33% so single ogres can always recover. With 4+ ogres you lose those individuals because fo the 25% rule.
Even the middle which appears weak is actually quite strong because while they may not kill much the flanking/supporting gnoblars provide the needed static CD to break an opponent.
Above all I try to maximize fear...meaning autobreaking opponents though outnumbering and then chasing them down. I also challenge everything I can.
Is it the best or whatever, I don't know, but it works for me and my opponents even ones I play regularly are struggling to over come it.
The thing I like aout the 3 butchers it is almost ensures that I will be able to balance out the benefits all the other armies have on me...that being armor. That simple notion clicked just this much on how integral gut magic is to the army, everyone I fight has better MUCH better armor than I do, that is what gut magic is there to make up for. Hek a fully defensive built tyrant can get at best a 1+ (HA, Mastadon Armor, Greedy fist, Skull Plucker I think thats right) but that is all 100 points and he is the ONLY person that can do that.
So yeah, the more Butchers I have the more I mitigate the losidedness of armor and being able to make a fair portion of the army stubborn to boot or having regen and Magic resistance More please.
Anyway, this works for me, it got my most needed asset, flexibility. Like I said at the beginning this is just one ogres opinion and I threw it out there I'm sure someone else will make it even better.
EDIT: I'll also say that this doesn't stop me from trying out other formations....got to keep your opponent guessing. Tonight I am trying out a large block format that was suggested in another thread....it was a look I'd never seen used and the upcoming tourny scenario it may work well in.
Thats what I like about armies like Ogres and woodies and some of the others they have some much versitility and many levels of play.
Last edited by skitzoid; May 17th, 2007 at 23:21.
They definately have a place, They can't kill anything by themselves and are toast if they get charged, but they are excellent flank chargers and warmachine hunters.
Initially I thought they sucked but they have found a way to being an integral part, you just can't sneeze at moving through any terrain freely.With the army I put up there Having them in trees or whatever basiclly guarentees that you won't be getting flank charged by anyone.
ANyway, what part of texas are you moving too?
The game format is to your advantage. The bigger the points to more effective ogres get. Since you play at 2250, you get to try more character heavy lists. Up here in Canada we still go by 2000, wich makes a huge difference in troop and character selection.
But like I was saying, the success might not last with this type of armylist. You mentioned playing 6-7 games with them? Against 4 different opponents. That's 1-2 game per player. Bringing an unorthodox army into a more tradition set of armies will give you the shock factor. Wait till you've played 20-25 games with them, see if it lasts. It takes a while for any player to get used to a new element. How to react, deploy, and use effective shooting and magic. It's like playing against bretonian army when you've played against foot sloggers. The awakening is quite brutal. It took me 3-4 games against the new wood elves to seize up the units and threat value.
I also can't see how a player cannot stop your critical Troll guts or to Bullgorger. Since you can only attempt once per butcher, and the range is 6 inches, you will rarely get more than 1 attempt, maybe 2 of your units are tightly packed. On the long run, you'll find that more ogres is preferable to less ogres. 4 man units of ironguts can really dish out some punishment, and maximise the 20mm bases frontage.
Also, you can't stack heavy armor and a Mastodon armor.
You'll find gnoblar to be prone to Bickering at very undesirable moments. They also lag behind a bit.
Fear s a great asset we have as ogres, but we rarely get to outnumber, unless you get 3 units in combat (gnoblars do not count towards the outnumbering/fear rule, as they do not cause fear themselves).
Ultimately I guess it depends onyour group of players and thier army composition. But anyways Best of luck Gorging!