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  1. #1
    Member lexingtond's Avatar
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    First Tournament 2250 list

    There is a tournament coming up at the end of this month, and I am seriously thinking about signing up. Though I have played 7th ed Fantasy for quite a while, and 8th for a couple of months, I have never competed in a tournament before. This is the list that I was thinking about taking; It is a list I like playing but I wanted to get some feedback on if it is "tournament usable" or not:

    *Lords: 406 pts

    -->Orc Great Shaman (Big Whaag)
    -Talisman of Preservation
    -Boar Chariot
    -Extra Crew
    =300

    -->Goblin Warboss (General)
    -Armour of Fortune
    -Great Weapon
    =106

    *Heroes: 291

    -->Night Goblin Shaman
    -Level 2
    -Opal Amulet
    -Scroll of Shielding
    =115

    -->Goblin Big Boss
    -BSB
    -Banner of Discipline
    -Light Armour
    -Shield
    =79

    -->Night Goblin Big Boss
    -Great Weapon
    -Light Armour
    =36

    -->Goblin Big Boss
    -Giant Wolf
    -Spear
    -Light Armour
    -Enchanted Shield
    -Potion of Foolhardiness
    =61

    *Core: 821

    -->46xNight Goblins [10x5 hoard]
    -Spears and Shields
    -Full Command
    -Netters
    =213

    -->40xNight Goblins [10x4 hoard]
    -Bows
    -2xFanatics
    -Full Command
    =200

    -->25xOrcs [5x5]
    -Extra Hand Weapons
    -Full Command
    =210

    -->14xGoblin Wolf Riders [5x3]
    -Spears
    -Shields
    -Full Command
    =198

    *Special Units: 370

    -->Goblin Wolf Chariot
    -Extra Crew
    -Extra Wolf
    =60

    -->2xSpear Chukkas
    = (not allowed to say I think..)

    -->15xBlack Orcs [5x3]
    -Shields
    -Full Command
    -Banner of Eternal Flame
    =240

    *Rare: 365

    -->Giant

    -->Rock Lobber

    -->Doom Diver

    --------------------Total 2253 (Guess I'll drop the extra wolf chariot crew)

    General, Shaman, BSB and Night Goblin Big Boss all join the netters.
    Wolf Big Boss joins the Wolfs.
    The Orc Shaman is going for "Foot of Gork" (around 99% chance he gets it, statistically) and some sniper spells, not caring about miscast at all.
    Bowmen are bait, pivoted towards the center, forcing charging units to expose their flanks to the rest of my Core troops.
    Wolfs Flank.
    Giant takes other flank.
    Chariots also split flanks.
    Doom Diver and Rock Lobber split sides of deployment zone.

    Things that kinda worry me:

    -I don't have ANY magical weapons (never needed them to win in a friendly match, but will I need them now?)
    -I also worry that my General is not well enough protected, since if he dies, half og my army is down to leaderhip 5.

    What makes this list different from my usual lists:

    -I usually have ALOT more Goblins! But I figured I needed some high strength flaming attacks agains regenerating monsters in a tournament setting.
    -I usually run a Shaman on Wolf with my Wolf Riders, choosing "sneaky-stabbin" every time. I don't have the points for him in this list however and I wonder if that will take out the bite from my Wolfs? (no pun intended)
    -My Shaman usually goes with the Bowmen, and more often than not he is lvl3, making them a lot more juicy target. Without the shaman, will anyone actually attack the bowmen? Maybe that is just a good thing? I love keeping all the goblins close (ld 9 and most often stubborn for all) and casting the big "Night Shroud" especially when I have fanatics hidden somewhere in the mist...

    Oh, and one of the house rules is that any spell that says "remove model as a casualty" inflicts wounds instead. Thus, the shield scroll.

    So please tell me, am I just overly paranoid about this tournament scene or am I missing something that makes an army "tournament viable"?


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  3. #2
    Member ashen1973's Avatar
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    I would say you have a lot of your Lords/Heroes tied up in the NG unit. I find Night Gobbo hordes are great for holding opponents in place and even whittling them down, but, Goblin characters are quite easy to kill and will get quickly killed by challenges/directed attacks.
    I would just place a BSB in this unit, a NG boss with Bad Moon banner or Normal goblin boss with spider banner works very well (I have a preference for the spider banner at the moment).
    Its probably a good idea to upgrade your general to an Orc/Black orc. the extra leadership and fighting skills will be more than worth the points.
    I'm finding normal boyz less and less useful currently. Would it be possible to exchange these for Savage's? Run these in a 6 or 7 wide unit, as Big Uns is great. Swap your Orc Shaman for a Savage Orc shaman and drop him in here with the lucky shrunken head to give th eunit a 5+ ward. Savage's with additional hand weapons are very painful for your opponent.
    Extra crew in chariots never seem to pay off for me, and its usefull to field 2 or 3 of the wolf chariots if you can, either as one unit or seperate, depending on your preference.
    I would also split the bowmen into 2 groups of 20. Run them up a flank or protect your warmachines with them. If you run them up the flank your opponent will throw something at them (be it warmachine fire/cavalry/skirmishers) in the fear that you have fanatics there, it doesnt even matter if you dont really have the fanatics! And what you tie up for at least 2 or 3 turns will be worht far more points than the gobbos they are trying to take out.
    I always find that larger units of wolf riders never make their points back, they die to quickly and will be well out of range of BSB/General if in a useful position putting them on a very low leadership for checks. Running just 1 or 2 small units of 5, basic, wolves can be useful as distraction units.
    I love fielding Giants in friendly games, but, they just are not worth their points in a competative environment. They die far to easy (regularly killed by a cannonball shot or two) and rarely do any meaningful damage. If you want a unit to draw warmachine fire then the small NG units or Gobbo chariots will do this for a much lower points cost.
    Its also worth trying to field a couple of Night Goblin shamans. A lvl 1 and a lvl 2 is more than enough. The Hex/Augment spells they get can make a huge difference to your combat units effectiveness. i say a couple of low level rather than 1 great shaman as its always a good idea to spread your magic, that way its not all over for the turn after a failed spell, or over for the game after a bad miscast. Also you get more channeling attempts.
    The Little Waaagh lore attribute is very handy for increasing your power dice/decreasing your opponents dispell dice and the extra mushroom dice for Night Goblins is also useful.
    I've found the actual damage spells of both the Big and little Waaagh's to be of limited use (others may well have had different results though) and the hex's/augments much more consistently helpful.

    Hope this helps a little, its just my opinions and I'm sure others here will be able to give you some insight and idea's to.
    Good Luck, keep up the Waaagh effort!

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    The shaman on the boar chariot is IMO a bad idea for a torny He is going to be target #1 and is pretty easy points. You have next to no close combat punch as your black orcs will get crushed in CC because of how small the unit is and your orc boys may last 1 or 2 rounds in CC but in the end will fall because of a crap save and inability to dish out large amounts of damage. The wolf unit is to big and way to easy to kill units of 5-6 as charge directors or war masien hunters that is what they are good for and what they should be used for. Giants are a no go for torny play simple rule of thumb if it has randomly determined attacks and no save or a crap save dont use it because it will die before it dose anything. You have to many characters that lack solid hitting power( yes you need magic weapons) and are easy to kill. You also have put all your eggs in one basket and your opponents will take advantage of it.Here is what i think your list should look like.

    23 Black orcs 6x4
    M/S Standard of disaplin

    Black orc big boss (general)
    Armor of fortune
    Iron curse icon
    screeching sword

    29 Savage orcs 6x5
    Big uns full cmd

    Savage great shaman
    Lv 3 Lucky shrunken head

    49 Night goblins
    Full cmd 2 fanatics
    Nets spears


    Night goblin great shaman
    Lv3 Power scroll
    Talisman endurance

    49 Night goblins
    Full cmd 2 fanatics
    Nets spears

    Goblin big boss
    BSB spider banner
    Light armor shield

    Rock lobba
    Doom biver
    2 spear chuckas

    2 wolf chariots

    This is just something i threw to gether in a few min and im sure needs tweaking but it is an idea.

    O and as far as the clubs specal rule who in the heck came up with that it makes different spells useless and all around is just a bad idea.

  5. #4
    Senior Member thetopcat84's Avatar
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    With your General on a chariot, only one Chariot, Divah, Giant and Lobba it makes the enemy targeting choices pretty easy...

    I don't see where the punch is coming from either, there's a lot of Anvils but if you're gonna win games you need to destroy enemy units... gobbos ain't gonna do that unless they're spear chucking, rock lobbing or doom divah-ing...

    What models have you got along with the list above? Would happily offer up an alternative list with tactics...
    TCs Space Marines || TCs Khorney Chaos || Soon: Orcs & Goblins || Future: Mordheim Reiklanders ||
    Article: Swiftstride Averge & Odds

  6. #5
    Member lexingtond's Avatar
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    Thank you for your thoughts

    Ok so, every one agrees I should not take the giant... So I guess he is out, which is a shame since he is the master-conversion center piece of my army. (might post pics one day, once I get his darn eyes painted right!)
    He has been falling over alot of people recently, but you are right; he never gets his points back. My thoughts on him is to offer my opponent a big juicy target, making it harder for him to choose what to shoot at.

    My Great Shaman is not my general. He is in a Chariot, because it is the best defense I could think of: All hits go to the chariot on a 1-4 so only 33.33% chance to get to the shaman. He then has a 6+ armour save, a 4+ wardsave and 3 wounds. I dont want to put him into another unit because I want to get off Foot of Gork with irresistible force so I want him away from my other units (and he does not suffer animosity).
    If you guys would agree that I NEED magical weapons, he would def get one. The Sword that causes fear maybe?
    Foot of Gork is one of the "Punches" I will be packing. No warmachine, or character (save multiple falling giants) can match its damage output. I usually stomp 2-3 times, but I have gotten 7 stomps!

    I have thought about running him on a boar instead, giving him better armour, but the only hitting him on 5 & 6 in a chariot is alot better.

    Will the netters + ranks + bsb + character-overload not protect my general?
    If I move the N Goblin Shaman over to the Bowmen, the "egg basket" unit is "only" some 400 points. Is that still too much?
    (*edited with better wording)

    I agree that the 25 orcs are nothing special... What if I would find the points (drop the giant) to make them big ones? That would also give me an extra banner. Banner of +1 move maybe? Move them regularly the first turn, and then surprise my opponent in the second!

    I thought 8th ed was all about infantry? you say I need more than 4 warmachines, so should I go Chukka spam or add a Doom Diver?

    I will also try to add another chariot.

    How many black orcs do I need? I only included them out of necessity, so if that necessity calls for even more of them then so be it.

    My dear wolfs... my favorite models... I would be very sad to see them go.

    I'm not sure on the Orc Warboss. Too many points. Don't get me started on the Black Orc one...

    I would like to try the bad moon or spider banner, but the standard of Discipline is just too good of a deal: 15 points for ld 9 goblins?
    -----------------

    Now you guys have really got me going!
    My confidence is broken...
    I feel I must start my list from scratch.

    Thanks alot guys

    (*edited some spelling)
    Last edited by lexingtond; May 9th, 2011 at 12:39. Reason: Wording and spelling

  7. #6
    Member lexingtond's Avatar
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    OK so here is the updated list:

    Let's see....
    -I took the Great Shaman off the Chariot and gave him a potion of Toughness
    -Gave Iron Curse Icon to my General (and his unit)
    -Tossed 10 N.Gobs with bows
    -Upgraded the Orcs to Big Ones and gave them banner of Swiftness
    -Added a rank of Black Orcs
    -Added two Goblin Chariots
    -Added a Chukker
    -Dropped the N.Gob BB
    -Added a Goblin Shaman on Wolf (personal favorite)
    -and dropped the Giant


    *Lords: 341 pts

    -->Orc Great Shaman (Big Whaag!)
    -Talisman of Preservation
    -Potion of Toughness
    =230

    -->Goblin Warboss (General)
    -Armour of Fortune
    -Great Weapon
    -Iron Curse Icon
    =111

    *Heroes: 337

    -->Night Goblin Shaman (Little Whaag!)
    -Level 2
    -Talisman of Protection
    -Scroll of Shielding
    =115

    -->Goblin Big Boss
    -BSB
    -Banner of Discipline
    -Light Armour
    -Shield
    =79

    -->Goblin Big Boss
    -Giant Wolf
    -Spear
    -Light Armour
    -Enchanted Shield
    -Potion of Foolhardiness
    =61

    -->Goblin Shaman
    -Giant Wolf
    -Opal Amulet
    =82

    *Core: 841

    -->47xNight Goblins [10x5 hoard]
    -Spears and Shields
    -Full Command
    -Netters
    =213

    -->29xNight Goblins [10x3 hoard]
    -Bows
    -2xFanatics
    -Full Command
    =167

    -->25xOrcs [5x5]
    -Extra Hand Weapons
    -Full Command
    -Big Ones
    -Banner of Swiftness 15
    =275

    -->13xGoblin Wolf Riders [5x3]
    -Spears
    -Shields
    -Full Command
    =186

    *Special Units: 565

    -->Goblin Wolf Chariot
    -Extra Wolf (already converted model)
    =60

    -->Goblin Wolf Chariot

    -->Goblin Wolf Chariot

    -->3xSpear Chukkas

    -->20xBlack Orcs [5x4]
    -Shields
    -Full Command
    -Banner of Eternal Flame
    =305

    *Rare: 165

    -->Rock Lobber

    -->Doom Diver

    --------------------Total = 2249

    General, NG.Shaman and BSB join the netters.
    Great Shaman goes with the bowmen (if he can bare the shame...)
    Wolf Big Boss and Wolf Shaman join the Wolfs, going for some sneaky stabbin' goodness.
    The Orc Shaman is still going for "Foot of Gork" (around 99% chance he gets it, statistically) and some sniper spells, still not caring about miscast (actually looking forward to seeing some NG get sapped by the surplus power of his magic)

    -I still don't have any magical weapons. If I drop the spear on my Wolf Big Boss and my BSB's light armour, I could give the Wolf BB a 5pt one...

    I am feeling alot better about this list.
    What do you guys think?
    Last edited by lexingtond; May 9th, 2011 at 14:36. Reason: Forgot some stuff...

  8. #7
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    Is this a for fun tournament or a competitive tournament. If it is just for fun then your list is fine and you should have a great time with it. If it is competitive your going to be fighting uphill(O&G tend to have that issue anyway) Drop the war boss make the shaman your general stick him in the black orcs and give them the SOD now you never have to worry about animosity screwing your magic phase all to heck. Put the flame banner on the big uns they don't need the extra movement. I know you like your wolf riders trust me i have my fav giant that is in all my fun lists but when i go to tornys he stays at home or sits on the game table and watches my dice for me but he sees no play. You need to leave this unit at home it is ineffective and to expensive. You need a hammer a unit that is going to hit hard and fast for this i like savage orc boar boys for this sence your already using your big un slot i would say 14 with spears and shield and a lv 1 shaman with shrunken head. i would also say get another 30 man unit of NG with fanatics they will help.

  9. #8
    Senior Member thetopcat84's Avatar
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    If you want to try and glean some ideas.... here's my current competitive list for 2250...


    Lord

    SOrc Gt Shaman L4
    Obsidian Lodestone
    Sword of Battle
    Dispel Scroll

    Heroes

    SOrc BSB
    Obsidian Amulet
    Sword of Striking

    Core

    28 Savage Orcs
    Add Choppa
    Full Cmd

    27 Savage Orcs
    Add Choppa
    Full Cmd

    Special

    6 Spear Chukkas

    3 Wolf Chariots

    3 Wolf Chariots

    3 Wolf Chariots

    Orc Chariot

    Orc Chariot

    Orc Chariot

    Rare

    2 Doom Divers

    2 Rock Lobbas


    10 War Machines, 12 Chariots and my basic core infantry put out 3A each...

    Apart from the characters I have at least 2 of everything so that if one gets delayed (animosity/speed bumped/panicked) or destroyed (chariot) then there's at least 1 other to fulfil the role... It also makes my opponent have to make difficult decisions (what do I shoot at/prioritise first?).

    The army has the ability to either sit back and force the enemy to me or to take the fight across the board to the enemy... there's only 2 units that can suffer animosity, but they are ItP... so a more predictable army (random is bad!)

    This isn't my finalised list. I have been toying with dropping a handful of Savage Orcs for a couple of min. sized wolf riders to hunt warmachines/speed bump/redirect (delete as appropriate). Also tempted to move away from the Orc Chariots for Gobbo Big Boss' on Wolf Chariots (extra M and can give them magic weapons for dealing with Ethereal nonsense)...
    TCs Space Marines || TCs Khorney Chaos || Soon: Orcs & Goblins || Future: Mordheim Reiklanders ||
    Article: Swiftstride Averge & Odds

  10. #9
    Member lexingtond's Avatar
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    Look like a hell of a list!

    So you use Warmachines for high str? Maybe I don't need my black orc....
    I have also never used the flame banner, but I fear Hydras and Hell Pits. How do you deal with them?

    The 300 pts that go into my Black Orcs could buy me a Lobba + Doom Diva+ 3 chukkas and then some.

    Why put magic weapons on chariots? Would´t the impact hits be wasted on ethereals?
    Has this worked for you?

    No wardsave magic items for you Characters? I would love to save me those points...
    Do they still deliver?

    Thanks for sharing your list.

  11. #10
    Senior Member thetopcat84's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by lexingtond View Post
    Look like a hell of a list!

    Thanks!

    So you use Warmachines for high str? Maybe I don't need my black orc....

    For high T (i.e. T6/7) and multi-W monsters, use the Spear Chukkas and Rock Lobbas... T5 you can use Divahs too: they're S5...

    For Heavy Armour, use Spear Chukkas and Doom Divahs...

    For Light armour use Divahs and Lobbas...

    That's not to say that Black Orcs can't play a role in your army... because of 'Armed to da Teef' they have the duality of being able to either chop-up Light armoured foes with 2x Choppas or take on Heavier stuff with Great Weapons... the problem is that you need to take numbers to make them last... because they're so points-hungry, you're likely only to field one unit... making them a priority target for the enemy


    I have also never used the flame banner, but I fear Hydras and Hell Pits. How do you deal with them?

    Shoot them and finish them off with chariots... They're only T5 with 5/6W... and don't pass their saves forever...

    Math-hammer: how many impact hits would it take to kill a hydra?

    It's T5, 5W, 4+ and 4++ so using S5 impact hits:

    5W with 4++ regen = 10 failed armour saves

    10 failed armour saves with effective 6+ armour (4+ Scaly Skin, but S5 remember) = 12 wounds

    12 wounds against T5 with S5 = 24 impact hits...

    What have we learnt from this? If I take 3W off the hydra with artillery, then a charge from 3 Chariots should finish it off (3D6+3 averages 13.5 impact hits)...


    The 300 pts that go into my Black Orcs could buy me a Lobba + Doom Diva+ 3 chukkas and then some.

    Exactly, I do own 20 Black Orcs and they're great looking models... but that's about it, sadly...

    Why put magic weapons on chariots? Would´t the impact hits be wasted on ethereals?
    Has this worked for you?

    Looking at my list, how do I kill Ethereals? Either spells or rank bonus... Have yet to try the Gobbo Big Bosses, plan to play-test them at some point...

    No wardsave magic items for you Characters? I would love to save me those points...
    Do they still deliver?

    My characters have Magic Resistance... looking at the list, how would you kill my characters?

    Shooting? You could gamble on a 'Look out, sir!' but you've got to hit and hope I roll a 1. Plus they've got 27/28 T4 6++ boyz around them...

    Close combat? You've got to get through the shooting of 10 War Machines and the charges of 12 Chariots to get to them...

    Magic? Yeah, best bet really... If you buy a Ward Save, there's no added bonus from the War Paint (i.e. Talisman of Preservation gives 4++) but with the Obsidian Lodestone I get MR(3) which gives him a 3++ against magic...

    The only thing I really is Dwellor's Below or Purple Sun of Xereus (no save of any kind and remove from play, sigh)...


    Thanks for sharing your list.

    No problem! Hope it gives you some ideas, that's kinda what we're on this forum for!
    They're the thoughts and reasons behind what I've got... I've done a lot of play-testing on universal battles and I'm pretty happy with what I've got so far... just wanting to try out the Wolves and Gobbo heroes now...

    You never know, maybe one day I'll have a finalised list! That'll probably be the day a new book will come out...
    TCs Space Marines || TCs Khorney Chaos || Soon: Orcs & Goblins || Future: Mordheim Reiklanders ||
    Article: Swiftstride Averge & Odds

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