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Alrighty then. The wife and I have decided to pick up WFB in our, quote, spare time, unquote. I asked around a few months back regarding starting armies, and you all were quite the helpful bunch. She's decided on the evil, mean Lizardmen for her army and has the Battalion box to start; I've decided on the peaceful and funloving Greenskins for my starter army.
We're going to start off with 500 point armies until we learn the ropes, and probably increase in 500-point increments in the future.
So what say you to my first attempt to build a list? No particular theme at this points level, but I'll probably eventually lean heavily toward Night Goblins and some of the more unpredictable units. Gotta love squigs!
CHARACTERSBlack Orc Big BossCORE TROOPSHeavy Armor
Ironback Boar20 Night Goblins w/ 2 FanaticsSPECIAL
20 Night Goblins w/ 2 Fanatics5 Squig HoppersRAREDoom Diver CatapultTOTAL: 499pts
This gives me essentially four maneuver units--one with unpredictable but potentially good movement--along with artillery support.
Anyway, this is just a long-winded way of asking you all if I've screwed up anything major with this 500pt list. What say you?
- How important is magic at this points level? It was magic or artillery, and I chose the artillery. Will the magic phase eat my lunch?
- I chose to mount my Boss on a magic boar to gain extra damage on the charge. Would the points be better spent putting him on a normal boar but giving him a shield and adding musicians to the NG units?
- For just about the points of the Black Orc Big Boss, I could go with a bare-bones Night Goblin Big Boss and Night Goblin Shaman, one to join each of the maneuver units. I decided to choose a hero that had not only better Ld, but could either fix units for flank charges by the other units, or could flank charge targets bogged in combat with either of the other units. Is one choice clearly better than the other?
- What is the price of tea in China, exactly?
Hiya, and welcome to Warhammer Fantasy!
Just glancing at the list it looks like loads of fun. You've got a scary hero on a mad cyber pig, gibbering fanatics launching everywhere while their gobbo brethren take to the skies and squigs run amock eating (hopefully) your enemies!
Now onto your questions.
1.) Magic is only really as important as you and your opponent make it. If neither you or your opponent has any magic, then that phase is really dead and of no importance to either of you. However, if either of you is fielding a magician things can quickly turn around.
Admittedly, in such a small game you won´t be seeing any major magic flying around. But a well placed spell can still be a gamebreaker even in such a low point game.
My advice? See how it feels. Try playing a game without a shaman, then try adding him in. Does he do it for you? Does he earn back the points he costs? And more importantly, does he make things more fun?
Lizardmen can field some powerful magic, and if you find yourself facing that sort of opposition it may be best to start fielding some of your own if only to counter it. Besides, Orc & goblin magic is hilarious so field some just for a few laughs if nothing else! ^__^
2.) Personally, I love the idea of a huge Black Orc cruising around on his cyber boar bringing the pain to anyone who messes with his merry band of Goblins. But he does cost 124 points which is almost 25% of your total points!
I don't doubt for a moment that he won't be fun to use. I think a more overall effective choice, however, would be to scale down on your hero cost and get a full command on your Night goblin units. An extra attack in the front rank (unit champion), +1 combat resolution (banner), and winning ties and a +1 to rallying (musician) is a steal for only 20 points per unit. I'd perhaps even suggest sacrificing a fanatic in each unit to make up for those costs leaving you with 10 points leftover to either further pimp your hero or, if you make enough points back by scaling him down, get more goblin goodness on the table! =D
3.) Two gobbo heroes tearing up the place sounds like it could be fun, and I'd suggest giving it a go and seeing how that works. I think you're better off, however, sticking to a single slightly better tooled hero than two barebones hero choices. But like everything it always comes down to personal style and what you are facing.
Your assessment of the usage of your chosen hero seems solid, but there really is no "right" choice. An expensive hero is a gamble, since once he's been killed then that's a large chunk of your army that's gone. Spend too little on your hero, however, and he's either too weak to accomplish anything or he gets beaten up by the first thing he comes across. Perhaps not too helpful as advice, but something that's ok to reaffirm.
4.) I really did try finding a source of tea prices in china but I really couldn't find any local price listing. All I could find was price listings for tea intended for export (thusly marked up) or the listed global price for tea.
I'm ashamed to say that I'm unable to answer this question despite my best 10 minutes of effort
I personally love playing small games. They don't usually take long to set up, nor does it take ages to paint up models for them which means more games where both armies are likely to be completed and great looking. Since you'll most likely be playing plenty of low point games there are a few resources that are great for that. There's rulesets for lowpoint games (called warband rules) that come in loads of varieties. Here's links to the two I use the most: Link here is very barebones and simple, giving pretty nice rules for low point games and the link here is one of my more favorite varieties of warband rules but abit more indepth where they also talk about long term campaigns with heroes gaining abilities and rank and file units becoming veterans. Abit advanced for someone just getting into the hobby, but definately worth a look!
Another thing to have a gander at would be (Night Goblin Tactica)The Paint Monkey's Night Goblin Tactica. It gives great advice for gobbo players and raises alot of points that're good to keep in mind when wielding such a force. Since you mentioned your fondness for Night Goblins I also thought it might be interesting! (I'm a recent convert to Night Goblins myself =D)
Hope it helped, keep us posted on the epic Lizardman vs. Goblin struggle
May Gork's smelly feet always be with you...always...no really, the smell doesn't wash off =p
Last edited by PrOtOcoN; January 4th, 2009 at 07:31.
Your fluffraping hurts my eyes. - TehDarkPredator
Thanks for the very thorough answer!
I'll give this list a shot for a few games, then see where to go from there. I did read the NG Tactica--what amazing work, and gives me hope for my ultimate list; I've been afraid such a list simply wasn't viable.
I was worried about the Hero's expense, too, so I'll keep an eye on him and see if he's effective in the curent role. If he keeps getting waxed to no avail, I'll scale him back in favor of a Hero on foot to join one of the units, and look for another way to sow a bit of confusion amongst the enemy.
Appreciate the help!
It looks quite solid actually 2 units, lots of fanatics, artillery that has quite a lot of chance of directly hitting its target and a big ol' hero with the leadership to keep your gobbo's in line.
Even though a lot of fanatics is great ( and lots of fun, no matter where they are heading.. ) you might want to consider dropping one or two and still putting in a goblinhero ( jup, normal goblin, ld 7. ) and spend the other pts for a banner and musician. He will add a bit of sting to the goblins, with 3 attacks strenght 4. That's just as hard as the black orc boss hits.
You might want to replace the doom diver sometimes, try to play around with your list a few times and try different things in games to see what works. With orcs&goblins, a lot of things work, and then they don't or do something nasty to your own army ( lots of variations of this ) but they are a green blob of fun. Mold it into some different shapes and try going up to 750 pts after this. In 500 pts you will notice you run out of space incredibly fast ( I should know, my standard dwarf 500 pts army is 2 small units and a tooled up hero, but the hero kicks ass! )
Also take a look at replacing the doomdiver with a pair of snotling pumpwagons, they can be so unpredictable and yet so devestating in these small pointgames. 2D6 str 4 hits, times two!
Keep us posted on your Waaagh! against the Lizards
Thanks for the additional comments! I really like the pump wagons, and will be sure to have a couple when my army grows a bit; I like your idea of trying different things, though.
Once I get this stuff assembled and painted, I'll definitely be looking to add to it. My wife and I decided to start small with the objective of playing and painting in discrete points increments so we never end up overwhelmed by huge swathes of unpainted gribblies laying about and demoralizing us from even getting started.
That's a very good idea.
Not only does it save space to not assemble too many models at a time but, as you say, it does demoralize you to see a couple of dozen models staring at you, lifeless unpainted eyes mocking you, hungering for your soul!
*assumes fetal position and starts rocking back and forth*
But returning to the list and future lists.
Something I notice about the Orcs and Goblin list is how cheap everything is. Cheap magic items, cheap special and rare units and loads of options. The great thing about that is that no matter what type of O&G models you get it's never impossible to fit them into a list, and they'll usually be able to serve somesort of purpose (if only to act hilarious on your flank).
Being a modelling and painting hobbyist first and gaming second this means that I'm free to get all kinds of fun models and units without feeling like "Ah well, I'll never really use this though, will I? Atleast it'll look good on my shelf"
Rarely such a problem for the Gobbos ^^
Last edited by PrOtOcoN; January 4th, 2009 at 16:31.
Your fluffraping hurts my eyes. - TehDarkPredator
Here is a piece of general advice. Think. Think about the armies that you will face. Then pick a hero to combat all armies as your general. Then pick his bodyguard, unless fighting against an army with no shooting or magic, I consider it foolish to sit a character alone unless in a larger game.
Then think about the rest of the army. what do you want it to do? Maul close combat, Horde the enemy, shoot them from afar, magic them into submission? with that army I cannot see much thinking in what it is to do as a whole.
I would suggest not having the doom diver or the Black Orc. Put a NG Big Boss in, raise the number of Night goblins in the units to 30, add command then give the NG Big Boss madcap mushrooms. that will be an army that will hold itself.
Alternatively you could use my friends tactic. 100 night goblins, 2 NG big bosses, 2 spear chukkas. amazingly huge, and will make most opponents faint with fear, and only 500 points the way he made it. That is what I call a horde.
It would be fun to actually do something like that, 100 Ngoblins So you could alternatively swap the doom diver sometimes with another unit of 20 ngoblins with command.
Your first point, thinking about what enemies I'll face, was answered pretty early on, and reiterated by others, but I'll mention it again: Lizardmen. The implication of this at 500 points is that they will have no artillery (without spending half the army's points) or devastating Slann magic. I suppose an interesting variation would be to put a Skink Priest scout on a Stegadon (spending 350-400 points in the process) and have two tiny core units...but that doesn't seem to me more than a one-trick pony.
In terms of thinking about tactics, I did mention it, but not perhaps straightforwardly enough. The Doom Diver is for pounding big uglies before they get to my lines, or for neutralizing cavalry or flyers or ranged forces before they take apart my formation. Whatever the biggest threat to my battle plan happens to be. The two blocks of infantry are to fix (hold in place) enemy units until the harder-hitting Hero or Squig Hoppers can enter the fray, hopefully through flank charges. Conversely, the big juicy Hero can lure units into combat that could then be hit in the flanks by my infantry while the Squig Hoppers harass any rear elements or keep cavalry tied up. In short, I felt that four maneuver units gave me more flexibility to adapt and learn than one or two mondo units whose sole available tactic would be to plod forward dispiritedly in hopes of bogging down an enemy through sheer numbers...and which would be rather vulnerable to the hit-and-run special rule should Teradons be in play. Not to mention being no fun at all to build and paint.
In general, I'm thinking that there are several different ways to set up such a force, from refusing a flank and running amok with the Squigs and artillery until the enemy closed with my larger force, to a pincer maneuver with the faster units in the center to meet the enemy while the infantry swings in from the side.
In short, I disagree with your assertion that an army has to be a one-trick pony with all its tactical eggs in a single basket (numbers, magic, shooting), though those are legitimate approaches. I did toy, conceptually, with the idea of building the ultimate Skaven gun line, but opted for the more zany escapades of the Greenskins.
So, properly reassured that I have, indeed, thought through what I propose, would you like to discuss any aspects in detail? I'm certainly open to discussing why a certain tactic does or does not work.
Next, I would like to address the fact about the lone character again. he seems to be a decent first round hitter I well believe that he can kill 3-4 models preventing anyone striking back, but what happens when the second round comes in, or he gets charged. He becomes squig food. Playing against Lizardmen I would expect you to remember the 'Cold-blooded' rule, they rarely run. The boar seems to be a bit like the maad's map, it leaves the character well out of support from the army, unless you keep him close to the army in which case the points are better spent elsewhere. then imagine the skinks again, two shots each, hitting on 5/6(poison), then wounding on 6+, with three wounds on the character regardless of his 3+ armour save he will be taken down by turn two shooting. also, think of the fluff of the army, it is always good to have some kind of theme to the army, but why would a Black Orc ever lead an army of just goblins alone?
I still don't see the squig hoppers fitting in. They can't hold their own in a fight against ranks. They are made to hunt (you know what that means right?). So why have them in such a small unit if they are to fight close combat?
Back to the army type. This looks like an army trying to be three things at once. A Tough fighter, a horde and an artillery. It has never worked for anyone I know in this point limit. my 2-4k armies are more like that kind of build. try to stop trying to fit every element into that army as you can.
In short, I am picking holes in your army. It is what I tend to do. I even pick holes in my own armies. I find weaknesses, my friends hate it that I do that to them but they do pick some stuff up. I think that you need to find a larger number of opponents then just Lizardmen. For learning the mechanics of the O&G army it isn't bad. If you really wanted to learn the full mechanics, remove one unit of NG and add a unit of orcs and put the Black orc on foot in the Orc unit. I am trying to put a full perspective into the army rather then the idea that there will only be on enemy you will face. The concept is good but there are too few points to put it into action.
To answer your questions now.
1) Magic vs artillery. Well, it depends entirely on who you are. If you would like the massive range and the fact that the result of the damage depends on your intellect then Artillery is for you. Magic is more for people who like their armies to be relliant entirely on the dice, and are prepared for taking the risk that something will go wrong with the wizard (especially dangerous but funny risk for O&G). I am one of the Magic people, favouring a total of 6 wizards in any games of 4k and up leaving the other 2 spaces for a General and BSB.
2) I have given my views on this, but ultimately it is your choice.
3) O&G Magic is devastating, with the little waaagh! making things very sneaky. But Orc muscle is awesome and their leadership is the best of the lot. Again it depends on who you are. Orcs are for those who like to maul the enemy in combat. Goblins are for those who like to be sneaky and have so many tricks up their sleeves they need to put some in their socks as well. For this army I would choose the Gobbo's over the Orcs.
4) Never been to china, and to be honest I don't like their herbal tea (no offence).