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ok so here is the problem. the new army book for o&g makes the army almost unplayable in a tournament setting. i know alot of people are against playing tournys and what not. Thats not what im wanting to discuss. What miffs me here is this army seems like its going to be tier 3 or 4 at best with the new book. The loss of waaagh and all magic defense coupled with rock lobbas being rare and the big spider being extremely over pointed. my brother and I rolled out 10 combats with different modifiers for charging and what not and math hammered for hours on an Arach vs. a hellpit abom. The abom only lost 1 combat out of 10 and it is almost 100 points cheaper. i hear alot of people complaining about the way the book looks and no fluff being in there and all this other stuff but where is the raw power of book? that skaven army book was just stupid powerful. Why did GW see fit to screw the orcs so bad?
Coz it's coming up to the end of the tax year and they needed something to make money... hence, one of the most popular armies in fantasy gets a new book (old book with little added, wrapped in hardback) and new models...
I understand and appreciate that GW are a business, but can we at least get something that even keeps O&G playable?
O&G really is a 'just for fun' army...
Any Warboss who has heard their opponent say the words "Purple Sun has been cast..." will know this...
hmmm i don't really know...
- As topcat mentions, theyre the popular 'for fun' army and GW uses this wisely by letting their book be first at new editions. The writers are not really in to the 8th edition yet and so they have the risk of making overpowered or underpowered lists, O&G is easier because it won't be bad if they are less powerfull. the extreme amount of entries will keep it challenging even if it doesnt turn out to be he best.
- What we did see from this new book is that the writer spent ALOT of effort in making an internal balance for the troops. If they can keep this up for the next generation of books, than 8th is going to be A.W.E.S.O.M.E.!
- The old edition was a bit over the top if you ask me, I started feeling guilty even in tournament when i cast waaagh and told my opponent 'wait i still have to move those fanatcis through your lines again, war machines? no they errata'd it, they don't suffer now'.
- for some reason people end up comparing us with Skaven, which is like comparing paper (Skaven) with rock. I dreaded playing against them in the previous book even more than i will with my new options. Yes the hellpit is annoyingly powerfull, but do we want that to be the standard for the game? no we want the hellpit to get nerfed. - Also, using fire on the beast will eliminate it, so there they balance out
I'm seeing problems with our magic defence and i have no clue how i'm going to counter a Slann or purple sun (other than dividing my points wisely).
If magic defense is our only worry, that isn't going to bring us down from tier 1-2 to 4.
Warchief Diggah o da Bloodmoon Squiggahs
Also, it seems to me that they're suffering from being the first of the "new" army books. They lost a lot of their toys in the magic items department while everybody else still keeps theirs and had even more added with the tons of items in the BRB. So until more armies lose some of their crazy combos, orcs will be a bit handicapped, at least in the heroes/lords comboes department
Problems with the new O&G book? People who haven't used it much (or not at all) say that it's the worst book ever, that's the only problem I see. You've run 10 battles against a hellpit and it hasn't won once? What scenarios have you been playing? Both times my arach has gone up against the 'Pit, it's defeated it (this was in a game as well, not just a theoretical scenario).Good freakin' grief, the book's been out less than a week and you're already condemning it? Played against all the armies have you? At every points level? To tournaments? I highly doubt it. By the time you can satisfactorily estimate the "power of a book" (a concept I find inherently farcical) 10th edition will've been out for about three months.I understand and appreciate that GW are a business, but can we at least get something that even keeps O&G playable?
Honestly, the time you spend discussing all the various reasons why your army has been reduced in power could be much better spent actually learning strategies to combat these apparent "flaws". Ask yourself, what does this thread actually achieve? I think you'll find the answer is nothing at all.
No, that's what it should achieve, not what it's achieving. If you want constructive discussion on how to deal with those scenarios, that's great, I highly encourage it, but approaching it from a very pessimistic perspective is not the way to go about it.What does this thread actually achieve?
Constructive discussion about how to approach certain situations (Slann, Hellpit, Lore of Death)...
The reason why the Arach beats the Hellpit is because you can never guarantee what the HPA is gonna do in any given phase (this is why it is cheaper). You can however guarantee what the Arach is gonna do, because it has set movement and set attacks. Both times I've fought the HPA I've fought it on my terms, because it's random movement was a liability. Then, when I did fight it, it rolled a 1 in the first turn of combat and a 2 the next round, I had killed it by the end of that round. It's also got WS 3, so the Arach hits it on 3s. I'd pay for reliability over potential damage any time, it's why I don't use Giants.
The second time I defeated the Hellpit I got a flank charge because it didn't move far enough to charge into close combat with the unit my opponent was aiming at. Not that flanking it makes a lot of difference, but by that time I'd already done 2 wounds with my ruby ring of ruin (no one thinks to dispel it, but I'm good at rolling 5s and 6s to wound) and defeated it easily. I guess what I'm saying here is that it's silly to test the combat capacity of two units against each other in a vacuum. There's always other factors involved that influence the result, and a good player will ensure that they utilize every advantage available to them.
As for magic defense, having a level 4 is always a good plan, but Purple Sun is always going to hurt us, it's just what it does. What can we do to mitigate that hurt? Well sacrificial units are always a good plan, talking up units you don't care about whilst keeping quiet about the ones you actually expect to do something is another thing, your opponent will assume the talked up unit is more important to you and try to destroy it, when you didn't really care. And after you've done these things, there's always the chance he'll either:
1. Fail to cast
2. Cast but only just reach the casting value so you can dispel easily
3. Cast (maybe IF) but then roll a misfire and take out half his own unit, then get whacked in the face by a Miscast.
I killed 36 chaos warriors yesterday with Gork's Warpath, more than what purple sun would've done to them, but that doesn't mean the spell is too powerful, if you know your opponent has a shadow wizard, take steps to severely limit his options. Plus, we have some excellent sniping spells to kill enemy wizards "('Eadbutt being my favourite), use them! The wizard can't do anything if he's dead! (unless he's a vampire...)
So yeah, there's my suggestions, I took pains to remain positive in my discussion though, focussing on our strengths rather than our perceived weaknesses. If you concentrate on how weak your army is, you'll lose every time.
just got my copy last night , got it home and flipped through it . I have to say I am a bit disappointed so far . I haven't play tested anything yet , but one thing i noticed , is that in 2 instances they have either reduced the advantages of a horde , or punished you for taking a horde . which i find odd given that we are a horde army , and that should be our strength .
1st they left the fear elves special rule , for goblins , but dropped the part that it did not apply if you out number them 2 to 1 . the 2 to 1 rule with the creation of hordes in 8th made the elves way less threatening , now if you face them you can have 200 strong goblin horde lead by your black orc warboss scared of a lone elf archer . that makes no sense no matter how bad the pointy eared bugger stinks .
2nd animosity we still have to test for it , but now if you role animosity , you role on a chart , and if you get a 1 and are in a horde the unit does 2 d6 hits not 1d6 .
I don't like that spear chuckas can now misfire . and the cost is the same .
they made goblins with hand weapons and shields 1/2 point cheaper , and increased the price of a full command by 10 points
command s seem to have gotten more expensive all round .
orc boyz are now 1 pt more expensive with no change in effectiveness , same thing for arrerboyz
most things seem to have gotten more expensive points wise with little or no increase in effectiveness that i can see .
on the plus side , boar boyz are much cheaper 6 points a model cheaper and the command is cheaper ,
wolf riders are 1pt cheaper as well , black orcs got cheaper by 1 point , and their command cost dropped some .
I like the revised choppa rule , if i read it correctly , orcs get +1 st to their attacks in the 1st round of combat , regardless of which weapon they are using . which should benefit black orc using great weapons
the book it's self is very well made , hard cover stitched leaves , very similar to the old ad&d books , so it should last . my 7th edition book was less than a year old , and was already falling apart , so i do like the construction .
on the whole , I would have to say i am disipointed , there are some cool new models , but my personal army as it is just got a solid kick in the guts . the core of what i personaly play , ( troop heavy horde based armey ) got more expensive with little or no increase in effectivness . the book seems to pust you into buying elite models , black orcs , trols , wolf chariots , and away from a true horde style army . to be competative i think we will need to rexeamine the age old adage boyz b4 toyz , this book at first glance seems to be pushing hard for the toyz .
just my 2 disipointed cents worth
Last edited by ikken; March 11th, 2011 at 15:01.
Well i know when I started this thread it came off more as whining than thinking. i get that. I just don't understand the basis behind GWs thinking. I mean the fact that they are a company and they need to make money to survive is common knowledge. But doesnt it make more sense to make the models better so it makes us more inclined to buy more stuff? And I am constantly thinking about new ways to deal other armies. i play high elves and orcs as my main armies. I really want to play orcs more now because of cool models like the arach and stuff like that but this new army book makes it hard. So I looked into some options for dealing with things like the hpabom. And I do realize that a bunch of rolls made in a vacuum are useful tools but dont always apply everyday situations. But alot of times they do. Been playing alot of games lately and seen the Arach have to fight the hellpit several times with out any support due to factors beyond my control (flank collapsing, artillery reducing units to below an effective force, etc). So I just started avoiding the god forsaken thing when possible and aiming every piece of artillery on my side at it lol. And as far as the boyz before toyz ideology, i am intrigued. high elves run that way. Bare min core and then load up on elite like SM and WL. So maybe just go bare min core and then take hordes of BLORCS.
I recently played a daemon army and crushed it into the dust. Seriously, I wiped him out bar one unit and lost a unit of 20 goblins and a Orc chariot in return. Are daemons competetive? I think so......
Like with any Army book you need to choose your units carefully. Pairing up a Spider Vs a Hell pit is like putting up a Cannon Vs a unit of Goblins. The Cannon is great as a Monster killer, but worthless against the goblins. Have you tried using the Spider as a flanker? Tried it muncing on enemies flanks? No? Neither have I to be honest but I can't see myself using one anyway. If you think it's too expensive and not worth it.............don't put it in your tourny list?
The art of tourny list is making the best use of the units in your codex. If the unit doesn't cut it you don't use it. What does cut it? Night goblins with Nets and Fanatics are still nasty as sin for the points. Common Goblins with 3 Skulkas are great for killing enemy characters. Black Orcs are now cheaper and now even better. Orc Boys are the same as they ever were. Boar boys are better and cheaper.
Units of Wolf Chariots will decimate enemy elite units while big, cheap units of Trolls can much on other stuff.
Sure we've had some nerfs but we had them coming. The staff of sneaky stealing and the spirit totem weren't writen for this edition and were oveer powered.