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Many players have ranted that the new Dwarves, or Brettonians, or skaven, or wood elves are invincible cheesy super armies. I would like to award the place of honor to Orcs and Goblins. Consider the following approximately 2000 pt army:
-3 stone throwers
-2 doom divers
-savage orc spearmen
-night goblins maxed out with fanatics and netters
-A squid Herd maxed out with hoppers (I believe this is special, otherwise add a stone thrower and drop a doom diver)
-4 Mages, one of whom is a lvl4 with the nasty spell list.
Fill out the required core as you please.
This army has 2 ways of killing the opponent's entire army in 1 PHASE (Magic, or Compulsory Movement). The Warpath spell, with excellent luck. And the Squig Hopper, again with excellent luck. The opposing player need roll no dice, nor even really show up, if the O&G player gets lucky with either of these. I've had armies decimated by both. If neither of these work, the huge artillery and magical offense will wreak a terrible toll upon the opponent.
Not that this army is invincible by any means. It could EASILY destroy itself. In which case the opposing player ALSO does not need to roll, or even show up. And the army is relatively easy to kill, assuming the Orc player does not get lucky with spells or squigs.
But Armies like these are not much fun to play against. The Orc player rolls dice, and determines the outcome of the game. The opposing player removes models, or sits around while the Orc player removes his own models.
I don't mind lucky ways of killing a model. I don't mind lucky ways of killing a regiment. I don't mind getting lucky and causing the opposing army to panic and run. What I do mind are abilities that can outright kill the entire opposing army in 1 shot from 1 model, with sufficient (downright insane) luck.
Please note I'm not saying that O&G can't field more balanced armies. I just don't like that they have 2 ways of autokilling armies. I don't think any other warhammer army can do that. Please correct me if I'm wrong.
So, that is my argument for one particular Orcs and Goblins army to win the Unbalanced Cheese title, for all of Warhammer.
Last edited by kooshlord; July 27th, 2006 at 21:01.
Well - here's my 2p ...
You are correct that this O&G army could, in principle, win the game in
1 "move", and it has two ways to do it. But the chances of it happening are
so small that I wouldn't call it "unbalanced". In both cases you have to roll
well multiple times so it's not just a single roll that determines the outcome.
If you were lucky enough to win in either of those ways I would consider it
great luck on your part - not unbalanced cheese.
And, correct me if I'm wrong but, I believe that at least one of these methods of
"winning in one turn" could backfire on you. The "bouncing squigs of doom" (tm)
could land on your units just as easily as on the enemy. So that can't be
It is possible that an entire army can be swept away by a single source
(be it a spell, monster, magic item or whatever) over a couple of turns. Which
is almost as bad as what you're describing. For instance, with good/bad dice rolling (depending on your point of view) the entire army could be swept away by a single terror-causing monster. But I wouldn't call terror unbalanced. Or cheesy.
The list you outlined is pretty boring to play against, you're right. If your magic works,
and you don't fail any vital morale checks, you'll probably destroy the enemy
before he can reach you. But all it takes is one failed morale check in the wrong
place (especially if the enemy gets first go) and your entire army could vanish without
being able to hurt him!
I'm afraid I think there are still a couple more cheesy armies out there, so I can't
back your claim to have found the cheesiest army, sorry.
But full points for trying. It's an interesting concept, even if the final result
doesn't look too fun to play against. Tone it down a bit though and you'll
have a fun mostly-goblin horde with lots of "toys" - and still have 2 ways of winning
in a single "move"!
Hang on a minute ... here's an idea. How about the "Most balanced army that can
still win in one turn" competition! Good idea you had there, Kooshlord.
Actually, both of the proposed '1-phase-winners' can backfire. The warpath can result in stomping your own units if you roll a 1 to determine the next stomp. And, as you said, the "bouncing squigs of doom" (tm-SPON 2006) can turn on you.
Beating the army is a matter of playing a standard-esque Khorne army. Ton of DD and some scrolls ('enslaved' bray-shaman for fluff reasons). Then you have a bunch of large base size t4 warriors who aren't very susceptible to stone-throwers or doom divers march forward and kill everything. Take out the fanatics with warhounds and maruader horsemen w/throwing axes or javelins. Easy as cake, unless the irresistable force warpath or the bouncing squig get lucky.
The distinction I'm making is that I believe (and could be wrong) that no other race has ANY method of outright KILLING (not panicking, not breaking, not psychology, but killing directly) then entire opposing army in 1 shot (yes, a very lucky shot). Again, please correct me if there is a spell or ability out there I'm overlooking, I haven't read all the army books, and am especially ignorant about the undead.
So I'm just whining that the Orcs get the ability to autokill armies in one shot if lucky, while no other army does.
Most Balanced Army that can still win in 1 Turn: hmm... I'll vote generic undead. Charge with multiple infantry blocks simultaneously, get lucky on fear tests, *POOF* game over. Not much good against other Undead, slaanesh, ogres, etc though... any other votes? Neat Game Spon!
The silliest one I can think of is Skaven .. on themselves!
Bear with me ... you take a balanced Skaven army (yes, they do exist)
and set up your Warp lightning cannon on the right flank. 1st turn, it
misfires, scatters 90 degrees left at strength 10 with 48" range. Causes
a panic test in all your units, they are all near your own edge and flee off
Anyone else got any ideas?
As silly as this sounds, I've seen a similar Skaven defeat, with the Warplightning instead pull a 45 degree turn from a corner. I actually lost some chariots, but i didn't much care since everything in his army took about 5 strength 8 hits. Big panicks allround. It was funny.
Then again ive a seen a win in one turn army too, though it wasn't very creative. One of my friends used to play Lizardman, and against this same skaven player managed a couple Comets in one turn. Everything panics. Skaven player never has a single turn. Damn if he wasn't ready break those dinosarus' heads off.
Yeah, actually that thought prompts me to put Lizardmen as the cheesiest army. Kinda dull, very strong basic troops, but i don't think they have enough personaility or easy to exploit weaknesses.
Call me old fashioned but i still think SAD and brets are the "cheesiest" armies out there.
But and O&G shooty army of doom? I love it!
What about Lizardmen with Lord Kroak? Ruination of cities, and a comet for good measure - good night! Or perhaps a hellcannon causing everything to run with one VERY lucky shot? There are quite a few ways where a battle can be over before it has begun, but it is down to luck. The exact opposite could happen:
All mages miscast and....die, the hellcannon goes on the rampage and manages to panic a few units. It's all relative - you can get VERY lucky, but you can also get VERY unlucky. It's all about the roll of the dice :yes:
Of course i hope your not referring to old Lord Kroak and chumsOriginally Posted by Jimmy_boy
Yep, I know about th Slann special rules etc, hehe. Same goes for necromancers and stuff, but I was speaking in general terms :tongue:Originally Posted by Stonehambey
Yeah i guessed as you seem pretty clued up on the gameOriginally Posted by Jimmy_boy
Slann no miscast, best rule ever?
In fact i think the lizardmen have got to be one of the most reliable armies in the game no? I guess salamanders can eat their handlers but not a lot else can go wrong, unless i'm missing something (although you will always fail stupidity at the WRONG time:realmad
But i think the orcs have to be unreliable no matter what army you pick, it's in their nature. Without it they just wouldn't be the same, and we wouldn't love 'em as much:tongue: