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Can somebody please tell me how they are a fair race... they are better now than ever and they were too good before. SUch weapons as choppers and other weapons that used to apply on the charge are now on the first round of combat, and apparently orcs can gain the +1 strengh woth 2 hand wepons which is [dude, get a vocabulary]. They can now have level 2 wizards with teh [spell check does wonders] big waag.. they get free movement once in the game... and extra power dice for units in combat, and as far as im concerned none of the above is built into thier cost and if it is they dotn pay enough for it, there are othe unfair things but i cant think of them all at the moment. [what this post needs now is capitalization] and animosity gives them a chance to squable but also a chance to get an extra movement which is unfair....and they have cheaper common magic items than everybody else and their own magic items are much better and cheaper now and they get a runefang.... if anyone can justify all of this drop a post.... personaly i think that orcs are too overpowered and i consider them unsportsman like so i am simply not going to play against them unless u convince me otherwise.
LO's rules are here. Make intelligible posts that are more worthwhile than petty rants.
Last edited by DavidWC09; October 21st, 2006 at 02:26. Reason: breach of LO posting rules
Why would anyone have to convince you? It's a game, if you don't like playing against particular armies then don't, nobody's forcing you to. Personally, I don't think O&G are overpowered or anything similar, they suffer from a ridiculous Ld, animosity can open up flank charges on their armies like nothing (both results btw), and if they lose a combat or a unit is destroyed then their whole army can domino flee.
You didn't by any chance get beaten by an orc and goblin army recently did you?
The rules changes have been in effect quite minor. I will start with magic. Yes if a unit of 20 or more orcs is in combat and a shaman is within 24 inches of that combat the greenskins get 1 additional power dice, they also lose a dispel dice for any units or 20 orcs that are fleeing. Compare this to the old rules where you got one power dice per unit of 10 or more orcs and 20 or more goblins. It means under the new rules you will generate fewer power dice just for being in combat. This has curbed the waagh offensive power for magic and become more balanced.
The old rules for animosity still allowed you to make a move if you failed a test. Previously each unit tested and if you rolled a 1 you rolled again on the animoisty table. Now they have simplified this by just rolling one dice and applying the result. The rules for quell animosity have been toned down now as well. Previously any black orc within 6 inches meant a unit failing an animosity test could force them to reroll it, this meant very few failed checks as you could have enough black orcs to deal with it. The current rules say that a black orc character has to be in a unit, and if they fail a test the character deals them d6 str 5 hits while restoring control. Again, this is perfectly balanced and fair.
Goblin chariots have now been made 1 chariot per special slot rather than 2 previously, this has balanced things out as you could have way too many chariots before.
Goblins points have increased by 50%
The waagh ability can only be used once per game and still does not guarantee a free move, it simply adds the rank bonus of a unit (to a maximum of 3) to the animosity test. Only the warboss' unit and black orcs get an automatic move. This was pretty much a necessity as orcs and goblins before were very easy to march block and made it almost impossible for their infantry blocks to get into combat.
Fanatics now allow an armour save, albeit at -3.
Choppa's now give +1 strength in the first round of combat as well as counting as hand weapons. This was a highly welcome and necessary change. Previously orcs saving throws were pathetic as they could only have light armour and shields with no parry bonus (yes black orcs could have heavy armour but still...). Being toughness 4 doesn't count for much when you are wearing tissue paper for armour. The strength bonus only applies to orcs on foot. And given that orcs hardly ever ever ever got to charge before the old rules for choppa's were pretty much obsolete.
The cost of savage orc boar boyz and normal boar boyz has gone up (in points terms)
Black orc unit champions no longer have strength 5.
I think overall the army has become a lot more balanced and playable. Previously it was almost unworkable in a tournament unless you played mobs of night goblins with fanatics and bolt throwers. If you want to read a bent army book read the Bretonnian book.
Helper monkey, bring me beer and donuts
(BTW thanks for the reply)
But a unit of savage orc biguns can now each have 3 strength 5 attacks in the first round of combat for a low point cost... and orc characters are already quite strong compared to other races, why should orcs have cheaper common magic items, and get a runefang, and get really cheap magic items, for example they ahve a weapon very similar to a chaos runesword but its only about 20 points rather than 75.... and hero wizards get the big waarg and orcs aret going to lose any dispell dice because how often is a unit of 20 orcs going to be running away? and why should orcs get ANY EXTRA POWER DICE AT ALL? other races dont. and the biggest thing is Grimgor... he know costs 25 LESS points and gets TWO EXTRA ATTACKS! Grimgor was already a strong character.
and a question.... do orcs still have that item that reflects a spell on a roll of a 4+ that item was way to good...
Last edited by HowlingBanshee; October 18th, 2006 at 22:28.
Have you played against the list? Have you played with the list? The goblins can only use the the little wagh. Orcs have a diffrent big Wagh it's not the old never ending one (no more reroles). Everyone cries when a new list comes out. How about no more dogs of war now that's actually a big one. Quell animosty now does a bunch of damage now it better quell animosty. Start working on the playing more games find way around it.
Grimgor costs 25 less points because his unit of bodyguards have lost their magic standard.
Orcs generate power dice in combat due to the concetration of waagh energy, its been in the fluff for years. It doesn't alter the fact that this rule has been toned down a hell of a lot. Do you argue with dark elf players about their +1 to cast spells? Why should high elves get +1 to dispel? The whole point is armies have to be different otherwise where is the attraction of playing different armies.
I have no idea what they were doing with the common magic items, maybe they have been recosted as part of the new rules edition.
Sizzla's shiny baubles is no longer in the list, that was the one that reflected spells.
The runefang does cost 100 points, you get what you pay for. If you want to find fault with any item why aren't you jumping up and down about the battleaxe of the last waagh? that thing gives +1 attack and +1 strength to the character holding it for each rank in the unit. That is potentially much worse.
Yes a savage orc bigun on foot will get 3 attacks at strength 5 in the first round of combat, however they only move 4 and get charged more often than they charge. They can't flee because of the frenzy so they get hit and don't wear armour. 3 attacks isn't much good if you have no front rank left to fight back.
Having now played some games with the new rules I can say that the tweaks have still not made the army competitive. I have so far played chaos, dwarves and vampire counts and been kicked in each game. Next I am playing lizardmen, and don't holdout much hope ther either.
Helper monkey, bring me beer and donuts
- Alot of the safety devices for the magic phase have been removed.
- Orcs get magical weapons at good costs, because it is in thier nature to be offensive. Thte downfall to that, they have nearly have no defensive items, a single ward save, and 2 peices of armour. Sidenote: Check that "Chaos Runesword". It doesn't add to the most important stat. If you spend all your points on a magical weapon, how will you live long in combat?
- Quelling comes at a great price. Those strength 5 hits can know off a full rank, and late game get a unit bellow 50%. Very risky indeed.
- Black orc heroes lose S5, but other lords gain it.
- Big 'Uns upgrade cost doubled. I would be more worried about savage orc big 'uns with spears than 2 choppas, they get 2 frenzied attacks per model while on the receiving end! They still are very soft and sport a low initiative.
- Black Orcs have gone up. Sure they are Armed To Da Teef! , but this drives up thier cost for the generals who will no use them as tanks with shields, and they lost the quelling.
- Waaagh! magic as been toned down. Big Waaagh! is actually less interesting that little Waaagh! Lost all the rerolls. Warpath gone down in effect. Spells are now fairly shorter in range.
- Cavalry is up in cost. No improvement, and you now cannot afford to quell them anymore, losing up to 5-6 models in one go is fairly devastating at thier new cost.
- No Dogs of war. They brought some nice tactical options to make up for the weaknesses, or enhance the themes.
-Goblins aren't as expandable as they used to, but they still remain cheap cannon fodder.
- The Animosity 2 edged. IIRC, you have to move forward with the free move. Upsets your battleline greatly if you squable with the flank guard unit.
Just reading through it, I think the army will be competitive. Granted, I don't play O&G and don't claim an intimate knowledge of the army. I've beaten it and been beaten by it.
Looking at the new book for the first time today, I see magic supported with lots of nifty items (but often with drawbacks like needing units in combat) and the potential to really muck up the enemy's plan with boosted movement.
There's still a lot of choices when it comes to units and to magic items.
It seems to me they were trying to capitalize on the wild, chaotic aspect of O&G fluff and make it playable in a competitive fashion. Whether or not I think they pulled it off will depend on what I hear people say on LO and how the two O&G players at my local store do.
i also really got the feeling they were trying to get us to take orcs more than the goblins...
alot of our items and rules only effect orc units, or effect them more...
also theyre not that much more expensive than goblins anymore, o well i still love them both the same 8-D
i have played a couple of 2000 games, done well both times, but always been fun my strong units died in the first few combats, while my goblins and flankers took on their heavy cav etc. and won brilliant
lets agree to respect each others views, no matter how wrong yours are
i used play dwarf almost every week at my local GW, but work got in the way of me playing very much (work on thurs night), last week i finished working thurs nights so i grabbed my army case (for the first time in 5 MONTHS!!!!!) and went to have a game, ouch, i was soundly beaten by turn two by squigs, squigs dammit, they marched up to my lines and instead of fighting they did some blowey uppy thing, wich oblitirated almost every unit in my army (i was tightly packed around a hill) 3 units of squigs killed 90% of my army, with a rule that i feel is far to harsh to make the game "even and well balance", why are these monsters only 30 points for a unit of 3. just wanted a rant, oh if anyone else has had this experiance mail me so i can oan some mor lol, thanks......
move aside manling this is dwarf work......