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Hello all. Now that I finally got my necromunda show on the road with a few friends I need some healtyhy advice on how to bash them good
I have specifically been looking at fielding back-up CC juves but when I read the rules I find that charging is completly suicidal without CC boosting skills and even then it's so hazardous you might as well shoot the enemy instead.
So if I read the rules right I get to charge 8" AND the enemy gets a free potshot at me (and they are usually packing shotguns so I will be hit on a 4+ or better).
To get within 8 inch at the start of your movement phase means that I have already been granaded. So the only viable option as I see it is to run with the following set up.
Heavies on overwatch back up by shotguns and lasguns cover from both left and right forcing the opponent to keep a spcific group in cover behind a small wall you approach from the centre and sneak around the corner with a charge however.... why would you want to do that when you can just lob a granade and to add insult to injury if you charge every alst bastard on the otehr side of that wall will be on overwatch. I't not like they got anything better to do when theya re boxed in like that.
So... why buy all these expensive cc weapons when you can just invest in frag granades instead?
Last I checked there's no "stand and shoot" in Necromunda.So if I read the rules right I get to charge 8" AND the enemy gets a free potshot at me
Benefits of CC in Necromunda:
First game with a new gang and my CC equiped ganger (sword and laspistol) charged my opponents Juve. Juve fumbled and I rolled a 6. From all those hits I got 5 wounds. Just like that my ganger got 30xp, doubling what he started with.
EDIT: Having looked through the rules FAQ and errata:
It appears that I'm wrong here and you only get XP for each wound you take off and each flesh wound inflicted. Though it's still possible to get a load of XP it's not very likely.
2- Out of Action
As long as there are no more active enemy models in contact with you if you put a guy 'man down' in CC then he immediatly goes out of action. So instead of needing a 6 to take a guy out of the game you need 2+.
Combine that with the chance of multiple hits like above and there's a good chance of that.
3- More likely to wound than shooting
Most basic weapons shoot at S3. If you want to take a little risk then massive weapons give your basic guys S5. 50% chance of wounding a base model just went up to 83%. Later equipment, like power swords, give the S boost without the risk.
4- Shock value
Every gang has at least one ganger that kept on rolling WS or A when you wanted BS and you haven't got round to replacing their weapons yet. Take advantage of that, not may people expect a charge when they could be shot at close range and as pointed out above CC has a lot more potential XP to be gained. It can be risky, but if the gamble pays off then you can get a nice reward.
How to win in CC?
I have 4 main tips:
1- Out-skill them
Get your skilled CC people into combat with their people who aren't skilled in CC. If you haven't played the opponent before then you have to rely on going for the obvious targets, namely juves, heavies and flesh wounded people.
Be careful against experienced gangs though, I once got a nasty shock when I found out the heavy I had just charged had 2A and WS6.
2- Out number them
A 2nd attacker gets +1 WS and +1A and that's cumalative for 3rd, 4th, etc attackers.
Not only are you more likely to win the fight, but any friendlies that go down will not be out of action on a man down roll like they would be if they were on their own.
A simple trick for a starter gang is to pair up a juve with your leader. Use the juve first, if he wins, great your juve is getting the xp needed to get to ganger fast, if he loses he's only a juve and is expendable. If the juve doesn't take him out then the leader, on top of his already higher base WS, will have the second attacker bonus and barring some terrible rolls should win comfortably.
3- Get the right equipment
This is basic stuff, but make sure you have CC equipment for your guys if you want to win. The +1A for 2 CC weapons and parry from a sword can tip the balance easily.
4- Make sure your guys survive to get into combat
Make use of cover and covering fire. Use to cover to make it harder to hit your guys and use pinning to hold the enemy in place.
Also consider giving any armour you get form the market to your CC guys.
Last edited by 2000AD; July 14th, 2007 at 00:53.
well... no... If you get charged you always get a free shot at -1 to hit at the chargee. and no again you dont xp for every hit that wounds only the first one in any single combat it is the same for heavies and sustained fire you still only get xp for the first wound. It's in the rules.
2. taking people out of action in CC is a bonus but since you never get into cc in the fist place due to pinning and whatnot (not to nemtioned outright being downed) it seems irrelevant.
3. most common weapon is not S3; most common weapon is manstopper shotguns and heavy stubber fire. if you count the amount of shooting done by such weapons. Only in dedicated shoot outs where everybody is dug in can you expect alot of scatter shot.
4 most gangs have a heavy that sooner or later rolled +1BS so still the issue is getting into CC not whats done there...
1 there is no way you will ever see any CC unless 1 or more of the players is seriously bad or has a ganger with 150 or more xp all spent on agility and stealth skills.
2 again as no one ever gets to cc it is a non-issue
3 as you cant buy raptor jetpacks nor power armor nor bikes, nor any other speed boost your other cc equipment will be wasted points as you will never get into cc in the first place.
4 cover fire yes it works but it depends on shutting down enemy heavies and you do taht with shooting and by the time that shoot out is finnished you will be at granade range so why charge around a corner with 10+ enemies on overwatch when you can just get them out with granades?
CC does not happen because there is overwatch and the rule that says anybody being charged gets a free shot. It's the pinning rules that really makes charging suicidal. So what you need is a CC unit that doesnt get pinned but still it will get killed regardless with all the overwatch.
And here's the text from the online rulebook for charging, which since it's free online shouldn't violate the copyright rules:
Page 11I can't see anything in there about always getting a free shot at the enemy, can you? There's the 'may get a chance' section but that's refering to overwatch.CHARGE!
If you wish a model to engage an enemy in handto-
hand combat then you must declare and
make a special move called a charge. The reason
we do this is that the enemy may [emphasis mine] get a chance to
shoot as you leap towards him waving your
weapons and yelling a bloodcurdling cry.
Without measuring the distance, declare that
you are charging and indicate which enemy
model you wish to attack.
A charge is like a run, at double move rate, but
ends with the attacker touching his enemy baseto-
base. Once opposing models are touching
bases in this way they are engaged in hand-tohand
combat. Models are also engaged in handto-
hand combat if separated by a low wall or
obstacle, where it is literally impossible for the
bases to touch because the wall is in the way.
It can happen that you charge towards an enemy
but fail to reach him because you have
miscalculated the distance. If this happens the
model is moved as far as possible towards his
enemy and can do nothing for the rest of the
Note that you cannot move models into hand-tohand
combat except by charging – any move
intended to bring a fighter into hand-to-hand
combat is a charge by definition.
If you're talking about overwatch then the model didn't shoot last turn so it balances out. In fact it's in your favour as he'll have an additional -1 to hit for a charging target whilst in overwatch and if he doesn't state he's waiting for you to get into close range before firing then you have the upper hand.Everyone in every campaign I have ever played will disagree with you here about the "never get into CC part".2. taking people out of action in CC is a bonus but since you never get into cc in the fist place due to pinning and whatnot (not to nemtioned outright being downed) it seems irrelevant.Not everyone equips all their gangers with shotguns (And pay extra for manstoppers on top of that).3. most common weapon is not S3; most common weapon is manstopper shotguns and heavy stubber fire. if you count the amount of shooting done by such weapons. Only in dedicated shoot outs where everybody is dug in can you expect alot of scatter shot.
And since lasguns and autoguns have a longer range and are more accurate at range than shotguns then they're likely to be firing first and also hitting more often.
Heavy stubbers on average get 4 shots a turn so unless you're a small gang there's probably going to be more than 4 shots coming from the other gang members.Unless you're playing on a relatively empty Necromunda table then a smart player will be able to keep most of his gang, if not out of sight, then at least in cover from the enemy heavy and since most heavy weapons are move or fire this curtails their shooting.4 most gangs have a heavy that sooner or later rolled +1BS so still the issue is getting into CC not whats done there...Again, every campaign I have ever been in disagrees with you here.1 there is no way you will ever see any CC unless 1 or more of the players is seriously bad or has a ganger with 150 or more xp all spent on agility and stealth skills.
2 again as no one ever gets to cc it is a non-issueThere's no jetpacks or bikes (unless you're using the rules for them that were published in the old Citadel Journal) but there's skills like dodge and sprint and equipment like armour and smoke bombs.3 as you cant buy raptor jetpacks nor power armor nor bikes, nor any other speed boost your other cc equipment will be wasted points as you will never get into cc in the first place.
Hell, I've never used any of that stuff and I still get into combat. You don't need skills and equipment to get into combat, just play smart.1- Not everyone uses grenades. For the price of equiping 5 guys with frag grenades I can get 3 gangers, I know which I'd rather have.4 cover fire yes it works but it depends on shutting down enemy heavies and you do that with shooting and by the time that shoot out is finnished you will be at granade range so why charge around a corner with 10+ enemies on overwatch when you can just get them out with granades?
And if you're opponent is keeping 10+ guys bunched up around a corner on overwatch then obviously you wouldn't charge them, but what kind of retard bunches 10 guys up so close together?
It's not like grenades will be that useful in that scenario either as he'll still be able to shoot you with his overwatch fire.
2- If the entire enemy gang went into overwatch then they spent their last turn doing nothing (except if they all have certain skills). So use the initiative advantage you have and move through cover to better positions and make sure they're using the overwatch rule correctly (check the FAQ and errata on the website).
Or if you want to force him to act then just sit in your deployment area. If he wants to be beardy and stick all his guys on overwatch then force him to come to you.
Or next time you get to pick choose a scenario where sitting in his deployment zone on overwatch will put him at a disadvantage.Only if they spent their last turn doing nothing. Again if you're up against a beardy git who puts his entire gang on overwatch then just stay out of sight of him and see how long his patience lasts.CC does not happen because there is overwatch and the rule that says anybody being charged gets a free shot. It's the pinning rules that really makes charging suicidal. So what you need is a CC unit that doesnt get pinned but still it will get killed regardless with all the overwatch.
In fact from the way you're writing it seems the only reason you say that you never get into CC is that you're regular opponents just sit in their deployment zone and go into overwatch. Tell them that they're beardy gits and start playing scenarios apart from Gang Fight and Looters ASAP.
Or use their own tactics against them and show them how boring it is.
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yes it says may. so that only refers to the cherged persons overwatch not in general?
In that case when the penalties for appearing/disappearing target and charged stack for the model being charged it makes some sense. on the other hand it's still very risky with the short ranges involved. at 8" you will already have been granaded and shot unless hidden in which case you just get granaded.
in general we play on a 4*4 feet board with one full absic set and about 50% extra terrain made up of old garbage/paint containers etc. Still with all that cover havy stubbers on overwatch along with shotguns and granades rule the board. by the time anybody is close enough to use granades and charges its already in the bottle roll. and when choosing between a granade and a charge teh grande wins hands down as you can bet your finger the target for a charge does not provide the chargee with proper cover from retaliatory fire. It's like chess: you charge my gabger with your juve the juve gets it in the teeth in the following shooting phase. it might be a fair trade off but if you are charging with anything good in cc you are almost assured that that model is going down in the following shooting.
lasguns and autoguns have range yes but since everything is in cover and usually the 2+ sort you never hit anything unless you use scatter shot. its generally assumed that an 18" shot hitting at 5 is alot better than a 24" shot hitting at 6 and the manstopper makes wounding that much easier inside an acceptable range.
as for heavies, placement is everything. with proper placement there is almost no ammount of terrain that can prevent heavies from ruling the board from turn 1.
If you play smart you can hit cc vs a bad opponent but in an enviroment with no bad players cc just never happens. by the time people get into cc range the gangs are dug in on overwatch and waiting for some gangers to flank the enemy. anything that sticks its nose out around the beginning of turn 3 gets shot to pieces by overwatch. the only thing that breaks the stalement is when the heavies run out of bullets.
as for granades we usually have 3 granades in any starting gang and that is plenty with proper positioning.
and yes we are ALL cheesmasters in our campaign. the rules says its ok to go on overwatch in deploymentzone so fine we do it. thats my beef. In the standard rules its so hard to get into cc that by the time when you actually, by some fluke or fate of the dice gods, get there one gang is already bottling from cassulties.
As for supporting Necromunda I have been doing that since it first came out back in 1995 (as a side note I feel like a bit of a saddo since I had to look up what year it came out in but could actually remember that it was White Dwarf issue 190 that featured it.)In that case I can see why you say CC is useless.and yes we are ALL cheesmasters in our campaign. the rules says its ok to go on overwatch in deploymentzone so fine we do it. thats my beef. In the standard rules its so hard to get into cc that by the time when you actually, by some fluke or fate of the dice gods, get there one gang is already bottling from cassulties.
But Necromunda played like that just seems boring to me. Both gangs go into overwatch and then after a couple of turns of the long weapons trading fire everyone is out of sight of each other and it becomes a game of 'who wants to sit still in the deployment zone for the longest time'. The gang that decides to move forwards is almost always in the worse position in these cases, so the logical continuation is that you end up with games where everyone runs for cover and then hides on overwatch.
If I was running a campaign that turned into something like that then I'd seriously consider adding some house rules if things didn't change. Probably make overwatch a Skill that you could select from the shooting or stealth table instead of rolling, that way the only gangs that probably wont have it are Cawdor and Goliath who are about getting up close and personnel anyway.
I can confirm. There is no automatic shooting when you are charged. The text you pasted is a description.
Overwatch covers this. if you're not in overwatch, you're not shooting during your opponent's turn. At all.
As regards CC, it seems originally weaker than shooting, but eventually overcomes it, as it's the only way to really take down high wound, high T models. We usually use at least 2 necro sets+ other homemade scenery on our table, which may contribute to the advantage of CC. However, as a house rule, models must be within Initiative distance to charge a model they don't have a LoS on, which rebalances things out.
3 great ways to defeat overwatch:
- there will always be holes in a defensive position, that you can exploit by moving from cover to cover (remember, that's an extra -1 to shoot at you, if the overwatch opponent can see you at all)
- tunnels and vents also really help
- last but not least, getting a few extra cheap juves works great a moving shields.....
Also, few ranged weapons have high S, so if you keep your models in groups of at least 3 guys, you should not be blocked too often, and wounds don't stack up that fast.
Conversely, many 'Eavies will be either alone or with a single juve as security detail, so some good scatter shot of concentrated fire may block them long enough for your CC specialists to dash in and start slicing and dicing. Agility skills rule for that, in particular the awesome 12" run move 8Y
Finally, if nothing else works, pray for getting smoke grenades!!
"Politics is the womb in which war develops"
during our now 9 week campaign (we don't use more than 2500 point gangs anyways) the only time we have had any cc is when one side had full model count but ran out of bullets while the other gang had 2 downed heavies. thats happen twice to date.
After a solid 20 years of gaming, I've learnt that no matter how good one player is, if he or she uses the same tactic all the time, it will become stale and repetitive. Once one can see a hole in a defense, it's just a matter of finding how to exploit it. An "invincible" army usually gets beaten if it does not evolve. Above were a bunch of ideas on how to get in CC in Necromunda.
There again, I think it has a lot to do with the fact that your group seems to use little terrain. I've always enjoyed playing necromunda on tables chock-full of terrain. Not only is it more interesting tactically, but it also looks a lot better, and reflects the atmosphere of the Underworld.
"Politics is the womb in which war develops"
This is why you abseloutely must have adequate terrain.. If both gangs can just stand in overwatch and shoot at one another, you're doing something wrong.
Also, play scenarios where you have to move to get objectives etc.. Overwatch becomes much less useful.
Playing an all out CC gang in necromunda (at least with the houses - I'll go into outlanders below) is generally flawed, yes, and running an all out shooting gang is the boring and safe option so boring players tend to do it. But consider this - even the guy with the biggest gun in the game can be pinned by a tiny little hand crossbow or crappy blunderbuss, then finished off in close combat. The point isn't generally to charge out of cover waving clubs and screaming.. You have to be clever about it, use pinning, force enemies to waste overwatch shots on tough or disposable targets, etc.
Also, if you ever have the opportunity to get grenades which block line of sight, do it.. Even plasma grenades make an effective (but risky - as I found out more than once) screen against enemy shooting, and smoke and blind are even better. Especially for those times when you need to break out from behind cover and the enemy is on overwatch.
If your group is getting really boring, switch to playing Spyrers.. It changes the nature of the game enormously. Nothing like a Malcadon with 'sprint' to scare the crap out of boring camp-gangs ('leap' is almost worse, as you can leap out of cover unexpectedly, then charge in the same turn, hillarious.) In fact, I'd suggest between 2 and 3 Malcadons, at least one Jakara for breaking overwatch.. and perhaps a Yeld or two for pinning.. You may not win all the time, but damn will the game be interesting.
Scavvies might be another option.. 25 credits for a Scavvy with a club and normal weapon skill, not to mention the free zombie distraction.. With decent terrain and as long as you make the final push from cover with overwhelming force they probably won't be able to take down enough Scavvies in time. You could concievably outnumber them 4 to 1 very easily, if they've all gone down the shotgun/man stopper line, and you'll be better in close combat..
Redemptionist 'mobs' and ratskins (especially those tribal rules - Basic toughness 4 *shudder*) might have a similar effect, but both probably still work better with a balance between shooting and close combat. Ratskins are great, but a bit too expensive to waste on suicidal charges, while redemptionists can be really numerous but have to pay for decent gear. Still, you'll probably see more close combat with them than you will with house gangs.