Is WarMachine hot? or DEAD?

[Deadstar_MRC]

Spoke to someone since my last post who frequents the shop where Privateer Press stuff is sold - apparently the rulebooks are always in demand, with new players looking to snaffle them as soon as they're available. So that may be contributing to your not being able to get the books problem.

[Blood_Blade]

Not to be argumentative or oppositional, but I stopped playing GW games about 4 years ago to play WM/H. So I'm going to give you my spin on your points

1) PP is taking a lot of it's business mechanic from GW lately. They release a new core book every few years or so, then start updating the source books (used to be all together in one massive book, now there are usually 2 core books, plus your source book to buy).

Privateer Press releases a new 'expansion' to Warmachine and Hordes once a year, at separate halves of the year (ie, Warmachine will be getting their new book this spring, Hordes will be getting theirs in the fall). It is a single book for each system (not faction) and the books are reasonably priced. Wrath - Warmachine's first expansion since Mk II - costed $35, is 176 pages in full colour, includes rules, fluff, models and painting tips for all the Warmachine factions.

With Privateer Press' new app ++War Room++ all you would need is the core rulebook ($29.99) and the faction deck on the app ($6.99) and you will have access to all the rules utilized in the game as well as the stats for every released model for your faction as it is updated to include errata's and new expansions (at no additional cost). Similarly you could buy the rulebook and a Faction Deck for the same effect, but you'd need to buy the expansion books to get access to new model stats.

They've started releasing new "big stuff" units, which are balanced to force other players to pick up more 'big stuff' to compete against it.

The new 'big stuff' are the Battle Engines and Colossals, they do not follow GW's pattern of 'big stuff' = better stuff. Most people actually consider the Battle Engines to be less competitive than other options for similar points. Colossals, while not released yet, are rumoured to be going at around 20 pts a pop, which is slightly under half your points for the larger scale 50 pts battles, and extremely restrictive in the more popular 35 pts games. I can't comment on the power level that the Colossals will possess, but WM/H is a game of extreems. If you want something dead, you can make it that way.

If you go through a WM 'armybook', you'll also find that it's restricting - falling somewhere between Flames of War, and Warhammer for armybuilding. You pick your Caster, then he provides a focus to your army. Some units you won't use, or won't really benefit from, unless you buy another Caster, which is essentially like unlocking a whole new armylist, replete with new models to buy.

Well, the only restrictions are the number of 'casters you can bring (generally one) and Field Allowance. Other than that you're pretty much free to build whatever you want. Want an all robot army? Done. Want an all infantry army? Done. Want an all shooty/melee army? ... you get the picture. By adding a new 'caster to your army you essentially get to change the whole theme of your force for $15. Sure you may not be 'optimized' right out of the gate, but being able to change how your whole army functions by changing that one model is quite exciting once you realize that each faction has well over 10 different choices each to chose from.

2) In game terms, it's fun, but it's smaller. If you're in to that sort of skirmish-y feel, good on ya, you might enjoy this. However, there are better skirmish games out there (they're all just underplayed). You won't get the epic feel of Warhammer Fantasy with literally hundreds of models on the field, the scope of scale that you get from 40k (where 50 models still gives a TON of options and throwaways) but you also won't get the gritty skirmish feeling that you get from (easily relateable games we all know) Necromunda or Mordheim.

The game is definitely on a different scale when compared to WHFB and 40K, however I can get a full sized game in, in about 1.5h from unpacking to packing up. This means I can play 2 long games of WM/H in the time it would take to play one regular game of 40K or WHFB.

I would counter that PP's rules are infinitely clearer, but that could be because I've become very familiar with them. The core mechanics of the game are easily grasped (moving, rolling to hit and damage), but there are layers upon layers of possibilities within the rules that you realize as you play more and more. Take for example trying to hit a high DEF model, often times this would require high MAT, RAT or a boost, but you could simply have a Warjack pick up an opposing model and throw it into your target knocking both models down, doing damage to both and making them easy to hit for the rest of your army.

There's also an insta-win button built in to each game - kill their Caster. Imagine if every army you played was Tomb Kings or Vampire Counts, and it all just became about "kill the Heirophant/Vampire". That's Warmachine.

What you have just described is the single best thing about Warmachine compared to GW's massive games IMO. When you have just had your arse handed to you by your opponent, and your army lays in taters, as long as your 'caster is alive you still have a chance to WIN the game. No more will you have to 'go through the motions' in the diying turns of a game, because that's when assassinations become the most effective.

In my local group, we started to get into Warmachine right around the time they introduced the Retribution. I had a lot to do with it, because I wanted to play Steampunk Elves, and I needed to get my friends on board to join me. However, everyone in my group and at the store are very competitive, so it wasn't long before you started seeing 'RoC Archer Bombs' and other ridiculous little tricks that reduced the game to "who goes first, and who can roll more 4's".

Combo's are the lifeblood of all games. The RoC Archer Bombs become usless against an ARM 21 Man-o-War Shocktrooper unit... just sayin. Also, who can roll more 4's is clearly a GW thing, PP at least uses multiple dice to calculate hits so it's not a granular 1d6 but a curved graph. Average rolls are a 7, and even then you can swing high to 12 and low to 2, as well as having the ability to boost and additional dice to spike the curve even higher.

It plays very much like Magic:The Gathering - you have all of these awesome cards/units on the table, but at the end of the day your main goal is to ignore all of that and just inflict 20pts of damage on the guy behind it all.

While true, I feel like you should have implemented Steamroller Scenario's if your meta is as competitive as you claim them to be. You can download the rules for free off the PP sight, and the change the dynamic of the game as the win condition no longer revolves solely around your 'casters life (although you can still win/lose by assassination) you can also win by scenario conditions. All games become stale when you do the same thing over and over, WM/H isn't meant to be run assassination-all-the-time.

To be fair, 40k and Fantasy are full of their cheesy one-hit-wonder tricks, and both are still a dice-game. However, with Warhammer we at least knew that going into it. It was something that we anticipated, built our armies around, and accepted as a downfall of the game. But it's also part of the reason we wanted to try Warmachine. And when we did, and found the same exact flaws in an even more simplified version, we decided that if we're just dealing with the same BS, why spend $150 on a noncompatible system, when we already dropped $500+ on Warhammer games?

Because the game is compatible between both of PP's releases of Warmachine and Hordes? The game is actually much more balanced than you may believe, as every Faction fits into the competitive meta comfortably (not saying you can't hamstring yourself if you want to...). Again, WM/H really isn't about who brought the bigger model, but who used all their models to the best effect. This is an interesting topic as in WH 40k and WHFB I felt that list building contributed 60-75% of the outcomes of games, while with WM/H, I would say that list building may sway 15-25% of the games outcome.

Just my $0.02

[CaptainSarathai]

I'm surprised that they're releasing an App for the decks, that includes free updates. I'd imagine that at the most it would be more akin to Armybuilder than a full 'codex'.

Anyways, no harm done - you're free to defend Privateer. A lot of my problem is that I'm also stuck in my ways when it comes to my wargaming, I've always been a WH:FB guy, probably always will be. I've picked up other games that I enjoy - Ancient Battles, some of the minor skirmish varieties of Warhammer, and other off-brand games like 'Watch Your Six' and 'Disposable Heroes'. Warmachine is just one of many rulebooks sitting on my shelf, but I always end up going back to Fantasy.

There are things that could have been done to fix my local meta (although it's hard enough to get them to play regular WHFB scenarios - they can be a**hats at times), and we were playing Warmachine about an edition or two ago - depends on how old Retribution is. What I referring to when I said that the game isn't compatible, is that I could have spent $150 on Warhammer, rather than starting another game that feels very, very similar to it in many aspects. Even the 2D6 rolls - that's no different than Warhammer. At the end of the day, your average roll is 3,4 - so whoever can roll 4,4 more often usually wins it (except in backwards situations like Leadership where 3,3 is better).

Believe me that I'm not bashing Warmachine. There are times that I contemplate dusting off my pointy-eared little mechanics and getting a game in here or there (I really wish RoS 'jacks didn't wear those lame skirts), but I also feel like getting in games of WH:AB, Disposable Heroes and the like. I did truly enjoy WarmaHordes, and both PP and GW games have their pitfalls and similarities. If you prefer one over the other, you're not really missing anything, and indeed, if I were to talk to someone now as tell them to pick up a system, I'd probably say WM just because the prices are more reasonable ($250 to start an army can be daunting).

By the way, for future reference, about how much does the average army cost these days - 35pts of whatever you want, what are most people looking at spending. I've had an idea for a challenge to pose to the community, wherein players try to build an army that is "under budget" compared to the average for their system, but I have no idea what 'average' is for Warmahordes.

[Blood_Blade]

I'm surprised that they're releasing an App for the decks, that includes free updates. I'd imagine that at the most it would be more akin to Armybuilder than a full 'codex'.

The app includes the 'decks' (so the cards for all the models of a faction). You can create lists 'a la armybuilde'r, but the sweet thing is you can use these cards in games if your opponent has the app as well, tracking damage on them and seeing your opponents cards at any time even if you haven't bought their deck.

There are things that could have been done to fix my local meta (although it's hard enough to get them to play regular WHFB scenarios - they can be a**hats at times), and we were playing Warmachine about an edition or two ago - depends on how old Retribution is. What I referring to when I said that the game isn't compatible, is that I could have spent $150 on Warhammer, rather than starting another game that feels very, very similar to it in many aspects. Even the 2D6 rolls - that's no different than Warhammer. At the end of the day, your average roll is 3,4 - so whoever can roll 4,4 more often usually wins it (except in backwards situations like Leadership where 3,3 is better).

I just feel that within the rules of Warmachine, an experienced player can mitigate a large majority of dice rolls through things like knockdown, sniper, guided, precision strike etc, which eliminate one of the rolls necessary to kill a model. It's still just a game, but I've been enamoured.

Retribution was released at the beginning of Mk II, which is the second edition since the game was released in 2000 (<- I think).

By the way, for future reference, about how much does the average army cost these days - 35pts of whatever you want, what are most people looking at spending. I've had an idea for a challenge to pose to the community, wherein players try to build an army that is "under budget" compared to the average for their system, but I have no idea what 'average' is for Warmahordes.

I would say average really depends. If you wanted an "under budget" challenge, run a mangled metal/tooth and claw event (only Warcasters and Warjacks or Warlocks and Warbeasts for Hordes). This would be run around 25pts and should be really in-expensive as 'jacks/'beasts are fairly points heavy while cost light. To try and spend the least possible, buy a Battlebox (typically 11 pts) 1-2 plastic heavies and a light 'jack. This should put your around $100, and you'll have the start-up rules (which is coincidentally all you need for mangled metal/tooth and claw).

Additionally, the $100 Two Player Battle Box saves you even more on top of regular battle box's, you just need to find a partner who wants the other army

[Tossy]

I'm surprised that they're releasing an App for the decks, that includes free updates. I'd imagine that at the most it would be more akin to Armybuilder than a full 'codex'.

Anyways, no harm done - you're free to defend Privateer. A lot of my problem is that I'm also stuck in my ways when it comes to my wargaming, I've always been a WH:FB guy, probably always will be. I've picked up other games that I enjoy - Ancient Battles, some of the minor skirmish varieties of Warhammer, and other off-brand games like 'Watch Your Six' and 'Disposable Heroes'. Warmachine is just one of many rulebooks sitting on my shelf, but I always end up going back to Fantasy.

There are things that could have been done to fix my local meta (although it's hard enough to get them to play regular WHFB scenarios - they can be a**hats at times), and we were playing Warmachine about an edition or two ago - depends on how old Retribution is. What I referring to when I said that the game isn't compatible, is that I could have spent $150 on Warhammer, rather than starting another game that feels very, very similar to it in many aspects. Even the 2D6 rolls - that's no different than Warhammer. At the end of the day, your average roll is 3,4 - so whoever can roll 4,4 more often usually wins it (except in backwards situations like Leadership where 3,3 is better).

Believe me that I'm not bashing Warmachine. There are times that I contemplate dusting off my pointy-eared little mechanics and getting a game in here or there (I really wish RoS 'jacks didn't wear those lame skirts), but I also feel like getting in games of WH:AB, Disposable Heroes and the like. I did truly enjoy WarmaHordes, and both PP and GW games have their pitfalls and similarities. If you prefer one over the other, you're not really missing anything, and indeed, if I were to talk to someone now as tell them to pick up a system, I'd probably say WM just because the prices are more reasonable ($250 to start an army can be daunting).

By the way, for future reference, about how much does the average army cost these days - 35pts of whatever you want, what are most people looking at spending. I've had an idea for a challenge to pose to the community, wherein players try to build an army that is "under budget" compared to the average for their system, but I have no idea what 'average' is for Warmahordes.

CaptainSarathai: I feel you don't understand why an average roll adds far more predictability to the game. On 2 dice you can predict that 50% of the time you will roll 7 or above whereas on a single d6 you can only surely say that you will roll any of the numbers 16.66% of the time, there is no element of strategy to it. This means that everything you do in the game requires more strategy and less dice. You will fail sometimes and win others but the dice rarely determine that and if it does at least you know you have strategy.

For example. If I attack someone who has a DEF (Defence) stat of 15 say and my RAT (Range Attack) is 6 I know that I need above average rolls to hit as I would only hit on 10's on 2 dice which is very risky.
If I was to do the same thing in 40k or Fantasy (or even ancients... which I love by the way) and I know that I can only hit on 5+ it is only determines by a single dice so the predictability goes down.

This does not include any of the rules buffs and debuffs the games has (e.g. hills, terrain, aiming bonus for standing still, spells, feat turns etc etc). Fantasy I roll a lot of dice and determine my outcome against not a whole lot of strategy just hoping I get the right units in position or they have the right loadout.

Anyway, I am not great at talking stats. There are things i can say though with certainty.

The big stuff in Warmahordes is universally lauded as balanced, and most of the time do not see competitive play as they do not fit with a lot of lists. The big things are for fun, and if you use them right they are great. Good but not nessessary. I can not say the same for GW products. You would be amiss to think that is what the bigger things from PrivateerPress are about. I will even say with the new collossals (and I hope I am right) that they will be balanced and won't see the table as often as you think and not once will I crap myself knowing I can't take it down with a normal list without catering at all. Battle Engines didn't even bring about a Meta shift in my area. I found playing GW products it is who has the newest codex/army book wins. Look at the balance issues the game has. Some armies can't even be played without knowing you are going to lose.

I play Fantasy, 40k, Warmachine, Hordes, Ancients, Infinity... well a whole lot of games (I have a great FLGS) and I can say that Warmachine is the most balanced games I have played. No faction feels like they can not win at any time. Like Blood_Blade I reccomend scenario play as caster kill is not a great way to play long term. It would be like playing grind Fantasy games all the time, not fun.

I am sounding like a real fanboy at this point. I am a little. I have been playing games for so long and I finally found one that is balanced and rely's on my thinking over rolling dice and I like that. I can take the models I want not what the company tells me are better (would you take spearmen if you were empire... no? then why are they even in the book?).

To answer the forum topic though. It is massive in Australia, all the fantasy players have ditched GW for PP and it is getting bigger all the time. All our Major tournament now run Warmahordes and are attracting new players all the time. From what I hear this is now common across the world. So I am happy anyway

[Triumph Of Man]

As far as complaining about the game itself, and why it's not popular in my area:
1) PP is taking a lot of it's business mechanic from GW lately. They release a new core book every few years or so, then start updating the source books (used to be all together in one massive book, now there are usually 2 core books, plus your source book to buy). They've started releasing new "big stuff" units, which are balanced to force other players to pick up more 'big stuff' to compete against it. If you go through a WM 'armybook', you'll also find that it's restricting - falling somewhere between Flames of War, and Warhammer for armybuilding. You pick your Caster, then he provides a focus to your army. Some units you won't use, or won't really benefit from, unless you buy another Caster, which is essentially like unlocking a whole new armylist, replete with new models to buy.

Yeah, not even close.

Templecon Masters winner was a Khador player. Here are his 3 lists:

Old Witch
- Behemoth
- Spriggan
10 Kayazy + UA
10 Nyss Hunters
Aiyana and Holt
Gorman di Wulfe
eEiryss
Reinholdt
Reinforcements: 10 Iron Fang Pikemen + UA

PIrusk
- Spriggan
Iron Fang Pikemen + UA
10 Black Dragon Pikemen + UA
10 Kayazy + UA
Great Bears
Widowmakers
Harlan Versh
Saxon Irrik
pEiryss
Reinforcements: 3 Uhlans and Yuri the Axe

eSorscha
- Spriggan (bonded)
- Black Ivan
10 Winter Guard + UA, 3 Rockets
Kovnik Joe
10 Kayazy + UA
3 Uhlans
Markov
Sylys Wyshnalyrr
Reinforcements: 10 Iron Fang Pikemen + UA

Notice something? Not a Battle Engine to be seen, they're really not that good. What do you actually see across the 3 lists? Cheap, low cost infantry that come in high numbers. High Defense infantry units are extremely popular, much more so than crappy Battle Engines.

There's also an insta-win button built in to each game - kill their Caster. Imagine if every army you played was Tomb Kings or Vampire Counts, and it all just became about "kill the Heirophant/Vampire". That's Warmachine. In my local group, we started to get into Warmachine right around the time they introduced the Retribution. I had a lot to do with it, because I wanted to play Steampunk Elves, and I needed to get my friends on board to join me. However, everyone in my group and at the store are very competitive, so it wasn't long before you started seeing 'RoC Archer Bombs' and other ridiculous little tricks that reduced the game to "who goes first, and who can roll more 4's"

Not trying to be an ass here, but if your games came down to "who goes first" I don't think you fully had a grip on how to play it. With current steamroller rules it really comes down to your list and the scenario objectives. Depending on the compositions it's often favourable to go second, particularly if you have a slow brick list.

The casters play like a combination of a King and Queen piece, they're your most powerful yet most vulnerable piece. The trick is to learn how to maximise the threat of the Queen while simultaneously protecting the King. If you were constantly getting assassinated chances were you weren't building in def tech correctly. Clouds, blocker units, def buffs etc. That or you just didn't maintain proper awareness of assassination vectors.

i.e. you see Molik Khan with eMakeda, you know he can reach ~20" with a clear run, and you shouldn't leave your caster within 6" of models he can sidestep into you from. Recognise this before your opponent slingshots him into your face and jam up his charge lane? Crisis averted. Otherwise you fall victim to the classic Molik Bullet.

[Ghost of Rage]

Warmahordes is very hot in my area, in a matter of a week our usual turnout on PP day went from 8 people to 20 and pretty well all of the armies are covered with the exception of Mercs (Cryx has 4 players and Menoth has 3). As to the original question about the Prime books, they're in fairly high demand, and in my area, were on a back order for about 3 months.

Also, coming from years of playing 40K, I found the rules of Warmahordes to be very refreshing. Everything is very seemless and easy to learn and unlike Warhammer, there's no speculation on how certain rules work or finding massive loopholes to break the game. Are there some deadly combos in the game? Sure, but every combo in Warmahordes has a bad match-up or two. There's also no such thing as codex creep as every faction is printed all at once and each new expansion covers every faction, leaving no one behind.

[Ryiax]

I work in a games shop in Aust. and from what i can tell you both Warmachine and Hordes are doing quite well. With the advent of over priced mini's from GW and the hobby itself becoming to hard to maintain price wise for alot of gamers, many have switched over to Warmachine. As from a stockist perspective Privateer is going strong and the lack of product is because they can't keep up with demand. At the moment they do core range then 3 months cycles of surplus units depending on demand until they can upgrade the operation for minature production

[Chirality]

I stopped playing 40K almost 2 years ago and switched to Warmachine/Hordes at a friends prompting and I have never looked back. 40K was a lot of fun for me but the smaller scale and differing rules set really appealed to me. East or West I have yet to play at a LGS where the Warmahordes community is not thriving. Granted, I do live the greater Seattle area now and have had the opportunity to speak to and play with PP staff, but even then I have a hard time finding the models that I want on the shelf because the stuff sells that quick.

[Spartan Command061]

You don't need the army books to play, each model comes with its own rules.

Can't believe noones pointed this out yet...

The main reason to get an army book is list building (not really essential when starting out), and faction fluff, or using it to get an idea of what a faction does without playing it (say you play against a friends khador alot, borrow his book and read it through).

Warcaster's dictating an armies direction and build.... Not sure what the problem is here, Warmahordes has LEADERS, 40k/WHFB has power weapon delivery systems or the like. The hq's don't really lead the army, they're just there. The warnouns can bring everything in the faction (mercs/minions and theme's aside), you may sacrifice a few synergies that elevate that unit above the 'norm, but it still functions. But that's how they work, a leader who's dogma is ranged over melee will naturally improve upon his ranged units more and overall perform better with them than a pure melee force.

Getting your leader killed should be a bit of a kick in the sack, it's a pretty critical gaffe to get yourself killed, and you will probably lose the battle (along with being dead). Some are tough, other's need protection, you need to balance achieving your forces goals whilst preserving at least some part of your army (in this case the leader), after all very few objectives are worth getting an honored general (as most playable warcasters are) killed over, perfectly acceptable for the journeyman to bite it in the pursuit of an ammo cart though.
It also raises the stakes in an 'all or nothing' run, you will either get all the glory or get crushed the next turn by an angry troll.

For me the skirmish size is refreshing over seeing the typical army being a horde of tanks/transports or 50+ MEQ's charging across the field.

---

Expansions come on a regular basis, and have typically heralded new unit types (cavalry, battle engines and now colossals), PP's dogma with new unit types seems to be that they are not necessary to include into your force to have a chance at winning a game versus that unit type (so you don't need cav to win a game, or BE's etc.), and playing with just the core rulebook/armybook semi competitively is still viable (obviously the more units available lend to more synergies/combo's that prime simply cannot match, nor should it).
Best thing about PP's expansions though, You can also use the new big shiny toys in EVERY SINGLE GAME, rather than leave your armoured companies centre piece Baneblade behind when choofing off to a tournament, you can bring that Conquest to stand with Drago and behemoth in whatever situation you find yourself in. The only reason for these new centre pieces to gather dust is because you let them (the Battle engines and collossals are definitely the most imposing figures in a list, not the best maybe, but they are imposing).

Also most 'sub par'/useless or whatever derogatory label the internet echobox lables units with, few are actually as bad as they are made out to be, they still function in their role, they may be points wise over more specialised units, or be costed to factor in a factions other buffing models or rules it has that don't always see play (trenchers, eyeless sight models (less so for them, theres usually something going on that it's invaluable)). Even BE's are seeing more use (legion/troll ones especially, skorne still suffer from skornergy).


Oh and warmachine isn't dead.

PS. What PP did in regards to still maintaining a profit was good, I would rather periods of delay for models, than permanent stacking price hikes. Can't remember the last time I saw a GW model drop in price, PP on the other hand with their new combined heavy 'jack/beast kits both lowered the price of the kit, AND gave you MULTIPLE HEAVIES (provided you put in the minimal effort to pin/magnet the arms/head/feet).