Can't Believe I'm Saying This But: Starting WarmaHordes

[CaptainSarathai]

Well, I've been a diehard GW fan all my life. Even the new price hikes and Poorcast haven't really diminished my love for their products. I guess that's what I get for dedicating more than literally half of my life to this game. But I can't ask everyone to do the same, and it seems that at my local, the new big deal is Privateer Press (at least until some ---hat starts complaining that it's unbalanced too, and convinces everyone to just quit). So it's with no lack of hesitation that I must say I'm considering getting into this game as well.
I won't bore you with what I think of my first few exposures to the game - but I really do like the way it plays, and it's nice that it's cheap - it just won't replace Warhammer as my first true gaming love.

So I've come to ask for your advice: I'm looking at two armies right now, with possible leanings towards two more. They are-

Skorne: I hear that they're armored brutes who hit like freight-trains, much like my beloved Warriors of Chaos. Additionally, I love their models, especially the Titans, Cyclops, and Cataphracts. This is the only Hordes army that I'm looking at.

Retribution: I'm an Elf (notice the name?) and I love Steampunk. So combining the two is like combining peanut butter and chocolate, or me and a really hot female - what's not to love? That said, I'm told that Retribution can be tough to play, and I'm not usually a fan of fragility. Their models are a hit and a miss. Like I said, I love Steampunk, and Retribution has taken the road of "sleek, smooth, and refined". Their models look a lot more like F1 cars than steam engines, and that's a bit of a let down.

As for the other two armies, I like Cyngar because they seem average and are truly Steampunks, and I'm told that they're a versatile army with a lot of ranged weaponry. The second of the "maybe" armies is the Protectorate, but I can't stress how much I hate the look of their 'Jacks. Their Exemplars and Knights Examplar, Visigoth Rhoven, and Flameguard look awesome though. If it were sensible to run a Menoth army "sans Jacks" I'd be happy and might give them another look.

All this said, the group that I run with is pretty competitive. I've heard that WarmaHordes is very balanced, and that if anything seems to pick up a runaway victory, they bring it back in line within the next edition or release. However, what I'm more afraid of are the "weak link" armies - every game has one, and I'd rather not find out that my babies are one of the "gimped" army lists.

[stormshaft]

Welcome to WarmaHordes, future friend!
I can start off by saying that I come from more or less the exact same background you do, been playing GW games since 1993-ish but my gaming group decided it was time to scrap their games and set our sights on what Privateer Press had in their chests (mainly because, just as you say, WHFB and 40k are extremely unbalanced).

I've been playing WarmaHordes for about a year now, and I was very skeptical at first since I'm a real GW fanboy (at least in lore and look of the miniatures) but I decided to try to have an open mind to it...

... and I absolutely love it. The tactical depth is more akin to Blood Bowl than anything else I've ever played. You need to know your opponents models about as good as you know your own. Which in it self is a lot more demanding since no army looks or works like any other, even if you only exchange the Warcaster/Warlock the army works in a totally different way.

I don't play Retribution myself so all I can give you is my thougts and experiences from the other side of the table.

- Retribution of Scyrah:
Think of them like a surgical scalpel, the majority of Retribution-lists are tooled and built with a single specific purpose in mind, often with Mage Hunters as a main attraction. The elves of Ios (their homeland) lack the steampunk-feel your get from the other armies and feel more pewpew-futuristic with their Myrmidons (their Warjacks). I have experienced them as a shooting faction (much thanks to said Mage Hunters), a lot of the Casters have either spells or feats to promote ranged combat and they do it very, very well. They do of course have melee-choices, but they are more flavour than a basis to build the force on.
This might not be the general idea behind the Retribution but at least those are the kind of lists I've been up against.

- Skorne:
This is my second faction of choice (my first being Protectorate of Menoth but I'll get to them in a minute) and in general they work like you assume, big things hit other things hard. The beasts- mainly Gladiator and Bronzeback- hit as freight-trains loaded with freight-trains and the BB can under the right buffs dish out more damage than any other model in the game. They tend to be a bit on the slow side though, as expected from monstrous elephant-beasts hitting that hard, but there are more than a few ways to get around that with the correct buffs.
The infantry are in many regards used as cannon fodder/jamming units/tarpits, and we have many ways to benefit from their deaths
giving us more uses from one unit other than just damage dealing.
Very few of our Warlocks are direct damage dealers, most of them are support pieces, either buffing our own forces or debuffing the opposition and like to hang around in the background.
Our solos are the sneaky pieces of the army, we have the awesome Ancestral Guardians and Extollers who make us of the souls from their dead friends, or the "hitty" solos like Master Tormentor and Tyrant Rhadeim or the utility/debuffer solo of the Agonizers (tortured calves of the Titans in fact).
A superbly funny faction to play.

- Cygnar:
The "Ultramarines" of the Warmachine-factions. But with a lot of guns. Most Cygnar armies focus hard on the shooting game with great buffs from their Warcasters. (I don't play them and have only met them on a few occasions.)

- Protectorate:
My favourite faction, and the first bunch I bought when we started out. They focus a lot on the denial game, and do it very well. Against some opponents they have been known to be near unhittable and unkillable, and if they die, they just come back again. At first glance they seem lackluster but with the excellent buffs and the denial possibilities they can in fact both hit harder than most and avoid getting hit back.
There is a very obvious way to play Protectorate without using many jacks, and that is by playing Grand Exemplar Kreoss (also known as Kreoss2 or eKreoss) and his theme force, it consists of different Exemplars and lots of them. In case you are interested in knowing more about it I'll gladly tell you.


Regarding the "tier" of the different forces, there are two armies that are considered top-tier, and they are Cryx and Legion of Everblight, and they are far from unbeatable, it's just that they have a higher number of competative warlocks/casters and play a very sneaky game that can be hard to counter.
The rest of the armies come in the 2nd tier of competative armies and it all depends on which caster you use together with how you build the forces.
This game is less dependant on "army" and more on how your different choices synergize with each other, there are no Space Wolves/Grey Knights/IG Leafblower lists in this game, every single list in the game can be countered by something else. There are bad match-ups, and good match-ups, which means that most tournaments require that you bring at least two lists and you are not stuck in using the same list as is considered a must-have.

I hope I helped out a bit with the wall of text.


Edit: ... and I hope you've found this site, it's immensely helpful: http://battlecollege.wikispaces.com/

[Orkbert]

If it were sensible to run a Menoth army "sans Jacks" I'd be happy and might give them another look.

Actually, virtually all Warmachine factions can perform well with only few 'Jacks (well, maybe Cryx has some need for their arc nodes, but that's about it). In fact, in the previous edition of Warmachine quite some players fielded armies without any Warjacks at all (it earned the nickname 'Infantrymachine').
Now they have rearranged some of the rules regarding Warjacks and the whole army composition points system (the Warcaster no longer costs points but instead brings an extra points allowance which can be only used for getting Warjacks) but it's still viable to just spend the minimum on Warjacks (the extra points allowance is usually only enough for a single Warjack anyways) and put the rest into infantry.
Of course, this also depends much on the Warcaster: should he have many buffs for Warjacks only then one should field more than just one, should his spells/buffs work for infantry, then get more grunts.
And Menoth especially has lots of infantry units with weapon master, which means they have a high enough damage output to be viable threats for enemy Heavy stuff.
Just beware that if you always go infantry-heavy, then your opponents will probably tool up anti-infantry lists against you.

[CaptainSarathai]

Skorne are "funny"? That's odd - I know that they play a hurt/heal game with their units, and that one of their biggest advantages is lots of nice 'Rage' control. I didn't think that there was much about them that was funny, aside from their ugly light beasts like the Krea. They look solid, I've heard that they're "almost" as organized as Warmachine armies, which scares me - how does Rage differ from Focus?

I think I have a few ways of making some good-looking Retribution Jacks, even though they're all streamlined. I'm thinking a nice cherrywood and brass scheme, maybe with a few added rivets, would look good. You can bend thin metal into all sorts of pretty shapes, much moreso than bending heavy slats of iron like I'm sure the other 'jacks are made of. Surgical is nice, I've heard that they can do lots of "lockdown" type moves too, which is pretty cool.

Cyngar - do they still have the Cavalry character, or did he leave? I remember when the game came out, he was cause for lots of alarm and whining because he essentially gave the whole army Hit-and-Run (or it's WM equivalent). I think that would make a fun army - something fast and shooty, like an Empire army with tons of Pistoliers. Otherwise, they just seem like a gunline, and that's no fun for anybody. At least Retribution looks like they have to be very mobile and proactive, even though they also focus on the range-game.

Protectorate No-Jacks/eKreoss - ummm, yes I'd be interested in learning more! Their models are so pretty, but I don't like their pope-hat Jacks and their tiny legs/feet. I'd have to find a good Jack to spend the bonus points on, but otherwise I'd happily jump into their ranks. The models are just too pretty to pass up. Plus, they come in the starter with Khador, which my friend wants to split. They're all about denial and fire, which is cool, but how do they do damage, and can they deal with Jack lists?

Final question - most of my friends are playing Warmachine lists. Is Skorne going to fare well in this environment, and what kind of books do I need to buy to make the crossover? I'm sure that there's probably a Warmachine core book, Hordes core book, and then some kind of "bridge book" between the two right? Or have they finally broken down and just said "Use Rage instead of Focus, blah blah" in a single main book? Thanks guys, for the timely replies, you're really helping me with this.

[Deadstar_MRC]

Regarding the books - The Hordes book has all the core rules in it, and of course the Rage mechanics. It doesn't have the Focus mechanics in it, though, those are only in the Warmachine core book. So I guess if you're going to run both Hordes and Warmachine, you'll probably need access to both books.

You can probably get by with just those core books initially. Specific unit rules will come on the cards when you get your models.

Additional things that might be useful but you don't really need them;
Faction books which contain all information on all the casters, units, solos etc that you can field for your specific faction, which may be useful for list building.

Same goes for faction decks - they'll contain all the cards (which contain all the unit rules) for your faction, so again you could compare and contrast all your available units and such. But then you get the cards when you buy a model anyhow so potentially the deck isn't all that useful... Probably the faction book would be a better investment if you felt you needed it.

Hopefully I'm not just repeating or contradicting advice you've already been given - I've only skim read this thread so far so I've potentially missed a lot!

[Orkbert]

how does Rage differ from Focus?

Or have they finally broken down and just said "Use Rage instead of Focus, blah blah" in a single main book? Thanks guys, for the timely replies, you're really helping me with this.

The mechanics of Fury (not Rage ) are in many aspects similar to Focus, yet in others they are almost the sheer opposite (and yes, you'd probably need the hordes rulebook, too, lest your warmachine opponents won't believe the stuff you might pull off with Fury).
While both Warcasters and Warlocks use their respective Focus/Fury to cast spells, boost rolls, buy additional attacks etc. just the same, the way Fury is generated and how Beasts interact with it is completely different.
In short, while Warjacks are a drain on a Warcaster's Focus (the more he allocates to them the less he has for his own spells and stuff) Warbeasts are actually the source of a Warlock's Fury, killing all Warbeasts of a Warlock is a surefire way to cripple his Fury generation (well, there are some stopgap measures but those are desperate and nothing to rely on for more than just one round and in that one you better win)
Tactically the warbeasts are a bit more versatile, you can decide do boost/buy additional attacks when you need it (provided the Beat's Fury stat ain't full yet and in most cases before making the roll, of course) but that is compensated by two things:
1st: if you can't leach all the Fury generated those Beasts with some Fury remaining might frenzy, lashing out at the closest model (friend or foe alike) and not activating in the round it frenzied.
2nd: compared to Warjacks with similar stats and capabilities, Warbeasts tend to be a point more expensive.

Oh, and Skorne should do well against Warmachine factions (as all Horde factions do and vice versa), just be aware of stuff that only affect living things (as Warjacks are immune against those)

[ikbuh]

The oldest debate in WMH is whether or not Fury or Focus is more powerful, and the fact that the debate is still going on means the real answer is neither. The game is very well balanced in that regard. At first glance, Warbeasts/Fury seem to be more powerful, but in reality, Fury is more aggressive and favors the early game where Focus is more consistent and Favors the long game (usually). Once a Warlock is out of warbeasts, they have to start hurting themselves on a 1-1 ratio for fury, which is very good for you. The other difference between the two is what they can spend it on. For each unspent focus, the Caster gets +1 arm, whereas a Warcaster can spend 1 unspent Fury to transfer the damage from an attack to a warbeast. Again, one is more consistent and the other is more aggressive, but both are good.

[CaptainSarathai]

SOOO... I've got both the Hordes and Warmachine core books, as well as ready access to all of the Faction Books (damn impulse buys - it was actually at a yardsale for about $75, can't pass up a steal)

I've only read the Hordes book to get the core rules for everything except Focus, and have been looking at Skorne. I think that my group said they play 25pt games, which seems really small. The list I'd like to run is a 35pt Xerxis list that runs me:
Xerxis
Min. Cataphract shield-dudes
Min. Cataphract shield-dudes
2 Titan Gladiators
1 Titan Bronzeback

I think it's a weak list, it needs some of the Pain Beastmasters or else Xerxis is going to get more than his fill of rage. Of course, the Bronzeback means that I auto-pass THR tests, so I'm alright until someone pops "big daddy".

I want to take a look at the Retribution and Protectorate lists, and see if I think that a 25pt and even 35pt list would feel better running a list from those sourcebooks. If so, I'll know my first army, unless someone can give me a nice way to use Cataphracts in a 25/35pt game. Xerxis seems the best guy for their leader, unless someone better is hiding elsewhere.

[Intrepid]

The main difference between Fury and Focus is that the former front-loads your army and the latter end-loads it. Horde armies start out with extra spells and can redline their forces but, as they lose beasts, their options shrink VERY quickly. By contrast, WM 'casters retain their full magic potential even when they're the last men standing. For beatsticks like the Butcher, it's not even a setback.

Skorne's specialty of Fury management was crippling when they first came out. Many of their trademark abilities only affected Horde units; in fact, Morghoul's feat was utterly wasted against warcasters. This has been addressed with the Mk II rules but is still something you should think about. Also, Skorne have relatively few buffing units. (This might also have changed since I had my Skorne.) WM/Hordes is a game that thrives upon, even requires, stacking buffs together. Most Skorne armies were phalanxes built around a pair of Basilisk Kreas for years, just because Kreas were the only support option aside from the warlock. Based on my experiences and those of players I've met, I can't recommend Skorne as a first army.

(Glancing at your list, I'd recommend replacing the Bronzeback with a Cyclops or something to bodyguard/feed Xerxis, and replace a Cataphracts with some Praetorian Karax for use as fodder. Xerxis benefits from having some meat around, as I recall, and you don't need the Bronzeback providing an extra way to lose control of your army. Use Beastmasters or a statue solo [forget its name] as you have space.)

I still have a Protectorate army that I enjoy. My playstyle is geared towards attrition & debuffing and Menoth excels at that kind of thing. (Less so at aggression, raw damage output and dirty tricks.) Going 'Jack-light isn't a problem with them; use a Revenger for an arc node and a Redeemer for support fire, and that'll fill your 'Jack points and leave you free to play with all their infantry options. Severius, Kreoss and the Reclaimer are good picks for leading such lists.

[CaptainSarathai]

Ooooooooooowwwwww my mind is blown.
I just finished looking through the Retribution and Menoth books (read Skorne last night) and I have to say, I have no idea what to do with this game! Average games sizes are 25-35pts right? I can't figure out how to put anything together that I like with those sizes. I'm entirely out of comfort zone from Warhammer - 2500pts is enough for me to get units that have comfortable sizes, and fill enough roles in my army to go against any of the 14 different lists and feel safe. This... this is mindboggling. So I have to hit you all with a new battery of questions:

1. What is a reasonable 'Pow' or 'S+Pow' in this game? If you want to split it into 'Jacks and Infantry that would be fine. But it leads into Q2...
2. How do infantry deal effectively (especially within Skorne/Retri/Meno) with 'Jacks? It feels so restrictive, almost as though you either field a suicide 'tarpit unit' of infantry, or you field a 'Jack of your own. That makes me kinda sad, as I really like the medium-based infantry options like Cataphracts, Exemplars, and cavalry.

List ideas that I can come up with (of course, I haven't really written them out)

Magehunter Scyrah-
with 1/2 Phoenixes to march right into the midst of the carnage while my infantry sneaks around the sides and tries to threaten their caster. Also loving the RetriCav, with the 2x shots whenever they stop to aim. 4 shots downrange seems like it would take down infantry blocks with ease, but more importantly, get the "lasgun vs. Marine" effect on all but the heaviest Jacks, by just forcing a ton of damage through 1pt at a time.

Exemplar-wall Menoth-
run some of the defensive Exemplars along the front, possibly a Guardian (only Menoth Jack I really like) to anchor the line, and then a bunch of their flame-thrower guys with the catapults behind them.

Exemplar-Horde Menoth-
No jacks, just Medium-based infantry slugging it out. The guys with flaming swords seem like they might be able to handle Jacks - anything their swords don't get to will be damaged by fire later on.

Cataphract Skorne-
See the Exemplar's above. The problem is that I'm not sure what the Cataphracts can do against a Jack. I really hate the Krea model, which seems like a bad spot to be in because it looks like you should include one on an almost mandatory basis. However, the Titans look sick.

Bronzeback&Titan Skorne-
Titans look cool, work cool, and seem like a good way to turn enemy Jacks into shrapnel. Of course, then I'm dealing with the fact that I have no viable plan for pasting infantry, and I'm going to end up facing lots of them I bet.