Lawful Good or Lawful Neutral? - Warhammer 40K Fantasy
 

Welcome to Librarium Online!

Join our community of 80,000+ members and take part in the number one resource for Warhammer and Warhammer 40K discussion!

Registering gives you full access to take part in discussions, upload pictures, contact other members and search everything!


Register Now!

User Tag List

+ Reply to Thread
Page 1 of 2 12 LastLast
Results 1 to 10 of 13
  1. #1
    Senior Member Joker's Avatar
    Join Date
    Aug 2004
    Location
    JC, TN, USA
    Age
    50
    Posts
    628
    Mentioned
    0 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)

    ReputationReputationReputationReputationReputationReputation
    137 (x3)

    Lawful Good or Lawful Neutral?

    Here's an easy question (or is it?):

    Would a Paladin use torture to extract information from a chaotic evil enemy in extreme circumstances such as saving many lives, or preventing the rebirth of an evil god?

    Use a loose definition of torture without crossing the line into abnormal behaviour (ie: removing the enemies limbs one at a time and cooking them and making them eat them).

    But allow for: sleep depravation; drops of water on the forhead; threats of violence; ad infinatum.

    I'm of the opinion that a Paladin would resort to torture in extreme circumstances even if it meant his fall from grace. But some may be of the opinion that no matter the outcome a Paladin would not sacrifice his purity of faith.

    Any opinions?


  2. Remove Advertisements
    Librarium-Online.com
    Advertisements
     

  3. #2
    LO Zealot Grimbog Elf Ater's Avatar
    Join Date
    Oct 2004
    Location
    Melbourne, Australia
    Age
    42
    Posts
    1,645
    Mentioned
    0 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)

    ReputationReputation
    31 (x4)

    Ultimately it depends on your character. If your character is the type that goes by the book and will not compromise their virtues (as most LG characters are), then there is nothing stopping them from explaining the situation to a third party and having the third party 'extract' the information and return it to the paladin, keeping the means of getting the information secret. All of the while, you character would be blissfully unaware of the torture that this third party undertook to extract the information that you were after!

    As a rule, torture is at best neutral behaviour, if not chaotic or evil in itself in game terms.
    The iron crowned is getting closer,
    Swings his hammer down on him,
    Like a thunderstorm he's crushing,
    Down the Noldor's proudest king.

    Under my foot, so hopeless it seems.
    You've troubled my day, now feel the pain.
    - Blind Guardian

  4. #3
    Wave Man Kahoolin's Avatar
    Join Date
    Sep 2004
    Location
    Canberra, Australia
    Age
    36
    Posts
    1,019
    Mentioned
    0 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)

    ReputationReputationReputationReputationReputationReputationReputation
    208 (x5)

    The way I see it a Lawful Good person is more likely to put the needs of the many ahead of the few, whereas a Chaotic Good person would put the individual's rights first.

    So if a PC had to torture someone to save many lives they would IMO behave like this:

    A Lawful Good person would torture the enemy, but would be very upset about it and atone afterwards. Better that they torture than someone else, like an evil person who enjoys it.

    A Chaotic Good person would refuse (no way! you can't save many lives at the cost of one!) but wouldn't care if someone else did it. That's their right.

    A Neutral Good person would judge on a case by case basis and would have no consistent stance, but would definitely try to avoid torture at all costs.

    EDIT: I reckon the most Lawful Good thing a apaladin could do would be to torture the guy knowing full well that they will lose their paladin powers until they atone. They are into being martyrs aren't they?
    Last edited by Kahoolin; May 10th, 2005 at 03:02. Reason: added a bit

  5. #4
    Junior Member
    Join Date
    Mar 2005
    Posts
    8
    Mentioned
    0 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)

    Reputation
    2 (x1)

    I reckon that if a paladine did that knowing he could atone later if would not be good at all.

  6. #5
    Member Gerbrith's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2005
    Location
    Iceland
    Age
    29
    Posts
    43
    Mentioned
    0 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)

    ReputationReputation
    44 (x1)

    Quote Originally Posted by robotnik
    A Lawful Good person would torture the enemy, but would be very upset about it and atone afterwards. Better that they torture than someone else, like an evil person who enjoys it.

    A Chaotic Good person would refuse (no way! you can't save many lives at the cost of one!) but wouldn't care if someone else did it. That's their right.
    Haha I see it exactly opposite :lol:

    In my oppinion, the chaotic good will think that if he can save many, it doesn't matter how you get there.
    And the lawful good will feel that he must stick to what is "right" and "just" by his law. The lawfull good character will most likely have a very strict code he needs to stick to, and torture would definately hurt him very very badly. On the other hand, if he was lawful to his country/city, the person to be tortured was a criminal, and the information to be conceived something damaging to the society in a criminal sort of way... He might very well contort to torture...It all depends on how you play him.. The character might be primarily lawfull and then good...

    By the way, I was under the illusion that they lost their abilities for good if they break their alignement...
    I claim the title of "mistress of the vindictive"

    =]Front in favour of Moderation of the Harshest kind[=

  7. #6
    Wave Man Kahoolin's Avatar
    Join Date
    Sep 2004
    Location
    Canberra, Australia
    Age
    36
    Posts
    1,019
    Mentioned
    0 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)

    ReputationReputationReputationReputationReputationReputationReputation
    208 (x5)

    Quote Originally Posted by Dracos
    I reckon that if a paladine did that knowing he could atone later if would not be good at all.
    Obviously you were not brought up a roman catholic!

    I thought it was all a case-by-case thing with the DM. If he is saving the world but the only way he can is to torture someone, and that results in him losing his paladin abilities forever, then that means the DM has created an unfair situation to trap the player. That's not good D&D IMO. In this situation he should be able to atone. It doesn't have to be easy, the DM can use it as an opportunity for a whole new adventure.

    Paladins are basically religious people, and religious people of all kinds (christians, buddhists, muslims etc) all face situations of varying severity where life forces them to break the rules. What makes them truly religious is that afterwards they will meditate/pray for forgiveness, whereas a non-religious person will not. That's how I see paladins.
    Last edited by Kahoolin; May 11th, 2005 at 01:23.

  8. #7
    Senior Member Joker's Avatar
    Join Date
    Aug 2004
    Location
    JC, TN, USA
    Age
    50
    Posts
    628
    Mentioned
    0 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)

    ReputationReputationReputationReputationReputationReputation
    137 (x3)

    Quote Originally Posted by robotnik
    Obviously you were not brought up a roman catholic!

    I thought it was all a case-by-case thing with the DM. If he is saving the world but the only way he can is to torture someone, and that results in him losing his paladin abilities forever, then that means the DM has created an unfair situation to trap the player. That's not good D&D IMO. In this situation he should be able to atone. It doesn't have to be easy, the DM can use it as an opportunity for a whole new adventure.

    Paladins are basically religious people, and religious people of all kinds (christians, buddhists, muslims etc) all face situations of varying severity where life forces them to break the rules. What makes them truly religious is that afterwards they will meditate/pray for forgiveness, whereas a non-religious person will not. That's how I see paladins.
    You make good points here Robotnik, but I disagree that this type of situation can be construed as bad DMing for forcing the Paladin to make this type of choice though.

    Paladins train their spirits and their faith daily to prepare themselves for just such occasions as this. Hoping against all mortal hope that they are strong enough to make the right decision when the time comes.

    It is one of the major crisis' of faith for them: Can the end justify the means?

    What I think Dracos is trying to say is that if a Paladin were to approach this problem with that most deadly of sins for them: Hubris! they would ultimately fail to be reconciled with their god.

    A Paladin may not traipse around in life making neutral and evil decisions simply because he/she thinks all they must do is make atonement and all is forgiven! Such a mindset would be folly!

    Anyway, that's how I interpreted Dracos response.

  9. #8
    LO Zealot Grimbog Elf Ater's Avatar
    Join Date
    Oct 2004
    Location
    Melbourne, Australia
    Age
    42
    Posts
    1,645
    Mentioned
    0 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)

    ReputationReputation
    31 (x4)

    The way I see the (good) alignments is:

    LG - Will do anything to further the cause of good within the confines of laws and as long is it is done in an orderly fashion.

    NG - Will do anything to further the cause of good and is willing to look the other way for laws as long as the end result furthers the cause of good. Respects laws and abides where practical.

    CG - Will do anything to further the cause of good through any means necessary. Has no regard for order and laws and will make a scene and use unconventional methods to attain their end result. Their results further the geenral cause of good, despite possible hurting individuals who stand in the way.
    The iron crowned is getting closer,
    Swings his hammer down on him,
    Like a thunderstorm he's crushing,
    Down the Noldor's proudest king.

    Under my foot, so hopeless it seems.
    You've troubled my day, now feel the pain.
    - Blind Guardian

  10. #9
    Wave Man Kahoolin's Avatar
    Join Date
    Sep 2004
    Location
    Canberra, Australia
    Age
    36
    Posts
    1,019
    Mentioned
    0 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)

    ReputationReputationReputationReputationReputationReputationReputation
    208 (x5)

    Quote Originally Posted by Joker
    What I think Dracos is trying to say is that if a Paladin were to approach this problem with that most deadly of sins for them: Hubris! they would ultimately fail to be reconciled with their god.

    A Paladin may not traipse around in life making neutral and evil decisions simply because he/she thinks all they must do is make atonement and all is forgiven! Such a mindset would be folly!

    Anyway, that's how I interpreted Dracos response.
    Yeah that does make sense.

    What I'm saying though is that the knowledge that your god is forgiving doesn't necessarily mean hubris and the deliberate breaking of rules. The paladin could be sincere in his anguish and still have to torture the guy to save everyone. In that case surely his god would forgive him? It's more about the attitude of the paladin, not his actual actions.

    I still think that the DM should reward players for good roleplaying of their character's alignment, not punish them by taking away their powers when they don't really have a choice. Nice situation though, definitely dramatic!

  11. #10
    Senior Member Joker's Avatar
    Join Date
    Aug 2004
    Location
    JC, TN, USA
    Age
    50
    Posts
    628
    Mentioned
    0 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)

    ReputationReputationReputationReputationReputationReputation
    137 (x3)

    Quote Originally Posted by robotnik
    Yeah that does make sense.

    What I'm saying though is that the knowledge that your god is forgiving doesn't necessarily mean hubris and the deliberate breaking of rules. The paladin could be sincere in his anguish and still have to torture the guy to save everyone. In that case surely his god would forgive him? It's more about the attitude of the paladin, not his actual actions.

    I still think that the DM should reward players for good roleplaying of their character's alignment, not punish them by taking away their powers when they don't really have a choice. Nice situation though, definitely dramatic!
    Thanks.

    I agree 100%.

    It is all up to how the character were to roleplay his Paladin.

    A good DM should listen carefully to the attitude of the player even when he/she is talking ooc. Call me cruel if you must, but on D&D night I consider all talking 'in character' from the moment I begin my adventure to the moment I say it's over. ^_^

    Something as simple as the difference between these two comments can make the world of difference for the Paladin:

    "My God will forgive me for my transgressions. I must have this information!"

    "May God forgive me for my transgressions. I must have this information!"

    In both cases the Paladin will fall from grace. But if I were the DM, only one of these Paladins would have a less than life long quest for atonement!
    Last edited by Joker; May 11th, 2005 at 04:13.

+ Reply to Thread
Page 1 of 2 12 LastLast

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts