Welcome to Librarium Online!
I don't get to play at a store often, and when I do it's typically at an off time, so often there is only one other guy and it seems like the other guy usually has the wrong Warhammer type army.
But, while a little silly, numerically things haven't changed too much in 40,000 years of technological development. Stat lines, points, and weapons are about the same. In general the rules aren't too far off, just a little finageling is needed to get them to work together.
Arguably it's even fluffy. The chaos gods are suspiciously exactly the same and some of the races are the same too. It doesn't seem too unreasonable that Fantasy is on a world swirling around somewhere in the warp or maybe the eye of terror. Somewhere even 40K chaos ships can't reach. Until the 40K players ship gets sucked in and crashes into the ocean. And with all that chaos around how odd is it that weapons operate like the rules say they do, instead of how you would expect a heavy machinegun to operate against peasants(40K players should be well used to this anyway).
I'd like to hear other peoples thoughts and suggestions on this. It would be sweet if there were some consensus that was considered fair by both sides.
-wherever rules conflict go with the Fantasy Rules. This levels the playing field a LOT. Suddenly those MEQs are rolling 5+ saves after being charged by knights. It goes on and on.
-40K units are, obviously, skirmishers. I'd like your opinion on whether they should move 6" like they usually do or act like they have a move of 6 allowing them to move much faster around the board. I'm leaning toward the latter as, being wide based skirmishers without standard bearers or musicians, 40K units can't afford to charge formed up fantasy units in the front at all.
-loser checks moral/break tests are a little odd. I'd say it fits the flavor more that 40K units that don't retreat in 40K from lost combat wouldn't retreat in this mix, but suffer the undead type extra casualties results or the 40K no retreat result, whichever is worse.
-in shooting, instead of modifying the targets armor save based on strength, 40K weapons reduce it by 7-AP value. So a bolter reduces a save by two, a heavy bolter by three, a str6 shadow weaver wouldn't reduce a save at all being AP - and so on.
-When attacking vehicles, weapons of S6 or higher get the monsterous creature +2d6 on their armor penetration roll. This is because S6 is what Fantasy monsterous critters tend to have or is the strength of things meant to take down such critters. Also when hitting vehicles weapons that do multiple wounds get to roll that many times for penetration. So a bolt thrower for example would roll to hit, roll for number of wounds, and roll 6+2d6 penetration once for each wound, possibly getting multiple results. For similar reasons S5 weapons that roll a 6 for armor penetration may roll another die and add that to the final value (so if a fantasy army only has S5 weapons they still have a chance to down a land raider).
-scrolls can stop psychic powers, psychers that occupy a HQ slot give 2 dispell dice. Otherwise magic and psychic powers don't interact. If wargear is designed to specifically intereact with the other sides magic/psychic abilities just figure it out the best you can. Or better yet don't use that wargear.
-template/blast weapons only kill 1/3rd as many models, rounding up, in formed up units as they otherwise would. I think this is needed as otherwise tight Fantasy formations would be way to vulnerable to such weapons. You can think of it as the guys in front shielding the guys behind from the blast.
-40K units, who just have better and more common shooting, get a one point BS penalty. (delicate weapon internals not handling the chaos here well?) Note that with the fantasy TN modifying rules in effect this means hopefully means 40K shooting shouldn't be broken. For example assault marines could try to jump around and shoot with their 12" ranged pistols while avoiding charges. However, they'd have the BS penalty, moving penalty, and over 1/2 range penalty. So they're only hitting on 6's.
Personally I think this would make for interesting games.
I think that this has the potential to be a really good idea. There are some more things that need sorting, as well as a few thigsn you've mentioned that i'm not sure about.
1) Ap-armour modify system. Im not sure how good that it, as it leaves out the strength of the weapon, which is the main armour mod in warhammer. What would happen if They just went off the weapons strenght, but ap2/3 get the armour piecing rule (like handguns) and ap- get - to the armour modifier? not sure how that would work, just trying to bounce around ideas ....
2) FOC? which would you use, or would it stay the same for each army?
3) Can dispell dice be used to stop psychic powers? maybe having to beat the amount rolled by the psyker? (thought this could make it very easy as usualy there is only one power a turn) If dispell dice can't be used, there would be no point in runesmiths for dwarves at all, and most other armies defensive mages? also, how would 40k armies stop magic?
4) Points values. Would they have to be changed at all for 40k units? im thinking near definatly for tanks, as i can think of some armies where it would be impossible/near impossible to stop certain tanks (VC, Chaos)
However i would love to see this happening, and may try and playtest with the rules you gave when i can
GEN 29:The 1st time you see this copy into your sig and add 1 to the generation
Big problems is the strength comparison of weapons
Strength 3 arrow hit the same as a S 3 autogun hit? I hardly think so - what about a crossbow bolt vs a bolter shell at S4?
The failings of the strength vs toughness system in use in 40K becomes so obvious when compared to fantasy system. (Check out Lethal 40K)
The reason metal armour disapeared from the battle scene was that 'musket balls' went straight through it - which goes to show the weakness of primative missile weapons as well as the 'power' of gun powder.
Boltgun -2 Sv to metal armour?! - more like modern firearms auto penetrate all primative armour.
Then you have the 3 hits of a heavy bolter etc on a ranked up regiment - I don't think so - the whole regiment of closely packed troops should be mowed down in one shooting phase.....
I could go on but basically you need to revamp the whole system, like I have done with Lethal 40K, taking seriously why modern warfare doesn't have blocks of troops roaming the battlefield anymore as well as the 'massive' increase in firepower of even the most basic firearms.
@macmoss. Yes we all know that standard 40K seriously undervalues their weapons. 40K players long ago started shrugging this off and filing it under gameplay > realism. They're used to shooting an unarmored human with a shotgun and having them shrug it off half the time. Well they would be if more people used shotguns.
While some people might enjoy lethal 40k on it's own it doesn't mix with fantasy at all. So that doesn't help with the "I'm the only guy with fantasy for 30 miles" type problems.
to 1. I just figured it would add more variety to use the AP values directly. Actually they often come out the same. I.e. most str7 weapons have AP4 etc. The spot where it'll make a big difference is on the odd weapon that's str6 AP- or s3 ap3 and I kind of like the flavor that goes with them. Do you think it'd be a game problem or just confuse the fantasy guy?
to 2: I'd go with whatever applies to the basic army. So people who have armies can just play them.
to 3 I have no idea how to handle dispelling psychic powers. Especially since 40K armies rarely have more than a single psycher. I just wanted to leave the dispel scrolls active since it's an easy mechanic and doesn't make the popular scroll caddy type units worthless. I figured it was then only fair to give the 40K player something back for the scroll thing so gave them the extra dispell dice for their own psychers. (so 40K armies would get the 2 die armies get by default and then +2 for every HQ grade psycher)
Don't know if that's the best way to do things though. Just seemed easy. If you can come up with something slick more power to you. Otherwise 40K would just be a bit vulnerable to magic.
to 4 I think changing indavidual units point values would just make things unplayable as people would have to have lists on them and redo their armies.
Instead I think we'd need smooth rules making killing armor reasonably possible.
Maybe have the general fantasy rules for hitting a war machine override the rules for hitting 40K vehicles? If they aren't trying to hit at 6's those questing knights would be a reasonable threat to a tank. (Though I don't remember the fantasy rules for hitting war machines).
I think the basic idea is that if a unit could kill a dragon it should have a fair shot at killing any vehicle.
How would VC kill a dragon? Using their main char?
Oooh just thought of one other detail that may occasionaly come up. While usually 40K monsterous critters and fantasy monsters are fairly well matched I believe, 40K does have two oddball models, the Talos and Wraithlord. T7 and T8 respectively.
Actually wait they aren't so bad maybe. They start off down five against basic infantry for combat resolution and don't have enough attacks to dig their way out. With the fantasy VC like rules for things that lose combats those big boys should topple to swarms of little gobbos easy enough.
So it's just the vehicles that need figuring out.
Wait - what you are actually saying is can 'we' devise rules that will allow slow, low fire power, medieval style armies to destroy modern/futuristic high firepower armies:rofl - well I think you are going the right way about it...........;Y
Whatever turns you on I guess:happy:
It mostly just a matter of merging the two fairly complimentary rule sets so it's easy and fun.
And if done right I could see it being a nice mix of real strategy and silly fun as a dragon and dreadnaught duke it out.
Oh and quick question does fantasy have instakill rules? That could be a problem.
Also should chars be able to challenge 40K unit leaders (reducing the effectiveness of hidden powerfists). On one hand it seems cool but on the other some squads really rely on their leader.