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I've been thinking for ages of how to make the heavier nid units faster in movement but still not make them overpowered. It haven't occurred to me before I saw screens of the zerg ultralisk for starcraft 2. Of cause the heavier nids doesn't have fast movement compared to gaunts, for example, they only moves with two limbs!
So here's my thoughts of a biomorph that will increase the movement speed of heavier nids and hopefully not making them OP.
Name: Additional leg limbs (I know it sounds stupid but I haven't thought of any better name) Instead of additional weapons some tyranids grows extra leg limbs, choosing swiftness over power, in order to outmaneuver their prey
Models applied to: Tyrants, Tyrant Guards, Broodlord, Warriors, Carnifex.
What it does: Gives the model the fleet of claw special rule and it also takes up one bio weapons slot (this means that the tyranid model may only have one bio weapon).
Secure Fleet: If the model want to ensure to fleet the longest distance possible it can choose to roll two dice for their fleet roll and choose the highest number.
If a non MC that uses "Secure fleet" and assaults in the same turn then instead of using the models normal attacks, every enemy model in base contact takes an automatic hit at the models base Strength (toxin sacs included if it is bought). No special rules applies to this attack and it will always permit armour saves. (This represents that the model is too busy running and tackles anything that is in its way).
If it is a MC that uses "Secure fleet" and assaults in the same turn. Instead of making its normal attacks threat is as an Tank Shock in every aspect, but is made in the assault phase. When tank shocking a vehicle use the models toughness*2 as armour value.
Fleeing units before falling back may attempt "Death or Glory". If a wound is taken buy a weapon with a Strength value equal or higher than the tank shocking models Toughness, then the tank shock is stopped and the tank shocking model is placed in base contact with the model that preformed "Death or Glory".
Point cost and Model specific rules:
Hive Tyrants, 16pts: A Hive Tyrant with wings and this biomorph gains fleet of wing (represented with an additional pair of smaller wings on the model)
Tyrant Guards, 5pts: Replaces the Scything Talons/Lash whips. If a Tyrant with Tyrant Guards takes this biomorph then the Guards must also buy this biomorph.
Broodlord, 15pts: Replaces the Scything Talons and will allow the Genestealer retinue to use their fleet as well. The Broodlord and its retinue rolls fleet rolls as one unit.
Warriors, 8pts: Warriors taking this biomorph may not take leaping. Warriors with wings and this biomorph gains fleet of wing (represented with an additional pair of smaller wings on the model).
Carnifex, 20pts: Vehicles that has to give away and models that has failed their Morale Check due to a Carnifex Tank Shock will take a single automatic hit at the base strength of the Carnifex (toxin sacs included if it is bought) if it is in the Carnifex path (after falling back). Note that being crushed by a running Carnifex does not permit armour saves only invulnerable saves may be taken.
There you have it. Please give your thoughts and if possible playtest! It would be nice if something like this shows up in 5th ed Tyranid codex.
Edit: I changed the Carnifex specific rules a bit as one automatic hit was too powerful. I also increased the cost for the Broodlord
Edit: rewrote some things and added "Death or Glory" effect on tyranid tank shock. And changes the carnifex rules, removed the initiative check but it only affects models after falling back making it much fewer models effected buy this. But I'm concerned that most of the time falling back will move further than the carnifex assault range and render this ability useless?
OMG!!!!!!! YES< FINALLY, A rule that will make carnies and broodlords have fleet! YES!!
Im pretty sure the cost should be higher for the broodlord, but thats me.
"What is Mercy? Does it taste Nice?" Hive Tyrant on Reth V
"Kill-kill! Death to the Enemies of the Horned Rat!" Warlord Bweekq at the Battle of Hrad
Not too bad. It does sound like "Agile" that the gigantic nid creatures get in Apocolypse. Not sure I'd go with not allowing warriors to take it with leaping though. (Although I'm assuming your intent is to make it so warriors aren't replacing raveners?)
I've not read the Apocalypse book so I don't know the rules of "Agile". But you've got the right idea. Allowing warriors to take both leaping and this biomorph won't make them much more expensive that a regular ravener but allowing them to move at the same speed and with synapse. I though that was too good. and players will use this option over raveners. The downside is that they will have two attacks less than a ravener. I thought that with only fleet it would be enough to keep up and provide synapse to homagaunts.
Basically agile lets the unit move extra xd6 in the shooting phase instead of shooting weapons. IE: fleet but not called fleet and x can be variable from unit to unit.
Sorry to say this, but I've got a balance issue here.
As it stands, tyranid big beasties are the hardest things to kill in the entire W40K universe (without going into Apocalypse). Especially Carnifexes. I mean, T8/9, W4, Sv 2+, Regenerates. Evil. And often cheaper than most MBTs.
The only thing that prevents them from being a total no-brainer currently is that a good/lucky opponent can neutralise a lot of their power by keeping the hell out of their way. Been there, done that.
What you're proposing is neutralising this disadvantage for rules that make sense fluff-wise, but are either massively unbalancing or woefully underpriced (your call). At the very very minimum, you allow the things a 7" move per turn, possibly 12". Mental. It also has various creature-specific faults, which I'll deal with now:
Broodlord - The reason why the Broodlord doesn't have fleet is because it has infiltrate. So you can set up 18" away from enemies (or 12" in cover), and rip them to tiny bits while the rest of your army turns up. The reason why it doesn't have Fleet is to reduce the chance of a first-turn assault, which given Genestealers' ability to rip through just about anything in combat is really quite important. This way, the opponent *will* get one round of shooting in unless he's very very unlucky. Your way, his chance goes down quite a bit.
Hive Tyrant - Why? It can have wings.... also, something with Wings and Fleet means potential 24" assault range. So on a normal mission, turn 1 assault from standard deployment. Ow. Nasty. Not good.
Warriors - not so much of a problem here. Rules work nicely in this case.
Carnifex - one word. NO. It's big and slow because it's the most devastating creature in the game. Make it fast, you make it a no-brainer.
Plus the assault rules. "Inflicts one automatic hit on every creature within base contact". So you gets something with a big base and not many attacks - Hive Tyrant say - and charge a big mob of soldiers. Viola! Instantly loads of hits! I don't like this. It's even worse for warriors & tyrant guard, who have even fewer attacks and a lower WS (which reduces the chance of their regular attacks hitting).
The Carnifex tank shock rules are just plain wrong. First you give it an extended move. Then you give it a shedload of attacks instead of its normal 1. At S10. Ignoring armour saves. Potentially, that allows a Carnifex to charge a squad and kill 6 or 7 people in a single turn, if the other guy is unlucky. It only has 1 attack for a very good reason (so it can be killed in CC). Plus - doubles toughness for AV value!? So AV 16!? Only killable with melta weapons?! What?!
I like the fluff, and for warriors I think it's a good idea. However, for the rest you'll either need to rework the rules a LOT, or push the points up massively. Or agree to play on a much bigger board.
If it ain't broke, it might need fixing.
The difficult we do immediately. The impossible may take a little longer.US Army Corps of EngineersMember of Advanced 40K development team (self-appointed)
The only thing I have to say about the carnifex is that it's rarely fielded as a melee behemoth. Simply because it's so slow. IMHO the fex is more effective as a shooter. Still has all it’s strengths and it’s still as survivable as a melee fex. I really have no problem giving a fex some form of fleet. Heck it may get that if the rumors from 5th edition prove to be true.
@Kabanov: Dude do you even know what you're talking about? First thing a fex have standard T6 and with expensive upgrade it can have T7 and it regens on 6s... wopiedo! nobody ever uses it. Second there're ALOT of other things in 40k universe that are harder to kill than fexes. Third if you play your cards right fexes aren't hard to kill at all. And the most effective way to stop/kill a fex would be in CC. I've been playing Tyranids since 2nd ed so don't school me on what you think is overpowered.
Have you even seen a nid player use a broodlord in a tournament and won? or not been shoot to pieces on turn one? Do you know why 90% of all nid players prefer tyrants over broodlord? It is because it is simply impossible for it to reach CC on turn one and it infiltrating w/o shooting weapons will just sit there and being shot at by the other dudes whole army. Charging 15pts of a "maybe not shot to pieces on turn" one is perfectly reasonable and you looses one attack because of it. And you won't even rend if you want to fleet with maximum distance. If you (with the official rules) worry about being assaulted by a broodlord then you really need to check how to place your models more strategic.
On a Hive tyrant you would be paying 16pts to get a random number (1-6) to move with during your shooting phase. How many flying devourer tyrants would want that!? and on top of that you will only have one pair of devourers (or STs). You seem to keep forgetting that it also uses up a weapon slot. This biomorph is mainly aimed towards walking tyrants but if you want it for a flyrant then you have to pay more and get less attack power.
Reading the rest of your post just makes me angry and irritated. You CLEARLY haven't even looked at the Tyranid codex and you haven't read my biomorph rules.
The tyrant gets base 3 attacks with option of 2 more, so what's "not many attacks" for you? The Tyrants tank shock is a regular one described in the rulebook so no special treat for it. The normal tackle with other units will always permit save so you'll forfeit rending and that's a big hurt to tyranid CC. And please read the Tyranid codex before making claims such as "carnifex got only 1 attack"... please a well tooled CC fex has a potential of 11 attacks if assaulting and you make a big thing on it ignoring armour saves... you do know that a fex IS a MC right? And the enemy models has to be put really tight to be that effective. Plus they can avoid it by taking a Initiative test.
You really makes me laugh on that last statement on AV value... that makes me even question if you know the official tank shock rule? Please read the rules of the game you play before posting or better yet before playing.
I really mean no disrespect towards you as a person but it really pains me to s meet gamers like you.
You let Broodlords charge you, as opposed to staying out of their way the same way you would with a Carnifex? I mean, really? I want to play more opponents like you.Broodlord - The reason why the Broodlord doesn't have fleet is because it has infiltrate. So you can set up 18" away from enemies (or 12" in cover), and rip them to tiny bits while the rest of your army turns up. The reason why it doesn't have Fleet is to reduce the chance of a first-turn assault, which given Genestealers' ability to rip through just about anything in combat is really quite important. This way, the opponent *will* get one round of shooting in unless he's very very unlucky. Your way, his chance goes down quite a bit.The MOST devastating creature in the game ... MOST devastating, people. News to me.Carnifex - one word. NO. It's big and slow because it's the most devastating creature in the game. Make it fast, you make it a no-brainer.I agree, auto hit is just silly. Even Gargantuan creatures don't get that with Stomp.Plus the assault rules. "Inflicts one automatic hit on every creature within base contact". So you gets something with a big base and not many attacks - Hive Tyrant say - and charge a big mob of soldiers. Viola! Instantly loads of hits! I don't like this. It's even worse for warriors & tyrant guard, who have even fewer attacks and a lower WS (which reduces the chance of their regular attacks hitting).It would be AV14, if it had an upgrade. Carnifexes are T6, with T7 if you upgrade them using Bonded Exoskeleton. I strongly urge you re-read their rules, b/c you haven't got a notion of them in the slightest. They have 2 base attacks, and can be upgraded to 3+d6 (scything talons/crushing claws), so they can already kill 6 or 7 people in a single turn. Their initiative is the weak point. Re-read the rules much?The Carnifex tank shock rules are just plain wrong. First you give it an extended move. Then you give it a shedload of attacks instead of its normal 1. At S10. Ignoring armour saves. Potentially, that allows a Carnifex to charge a squad and kill 6 or 7 people in a single turn, if the other guy is unlucky. It only has 1 attack for a very good reason (so it can be killed in CC). Plus - doubles toughness for AV value!? So AV 16!? Only killable with melta weapons?! What?!
Tank shock would only be ok if you stated that a successful wound caused on Death or Glory stopped the tank shock. This would make it pretty feasible to do things like meltagun them. Also, I'd just use their toughness. Honestly, if someone punches a fex in the face with a powerfist, even under synapse power it's gonna slow him down. But really it's irrelevant, charging into close combat is what they do, not running people over. They'd just get fouled up in the bodies, they still use legs/etc.
I don't like these user-made rules ever, but I felt the need to post simply b/c someone so egregiously boofed the rules on Fex when he replied. Seriously, you think they are T8/9? Man someone's been hosing you good I guess ...
Nids & Guard
GMail = MVBrandt