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I had inspiration to make a functional Movie Marines codex. I wanted it to be more extensive and more balanced. At smaller points it's less balanced IMO, but the rules are expanded to work on Apocalypse scale battles. The current list I've worked on has all Space Marine weapons converted to be more powerful then they currently are and all vanilla non-vehicle units are created. I'm hoping to get some help in making the vehicles, as well as eventually creating sub codecies for the other Space Marine chapters.
Hope you like!
Movie Marine Codex
Last edited by The_Chaos_Seer; August 9th, 2008 at 09:13. Reason: Attachment not uploaded
I've updated the Movie Marines. They now include Bikers, vehicles. There were also many minor edits to special rules, stats and squad sizes. Additionally, I made the Movie Grey Knights codex.
The Grey Knight codex is attached in this post, but use the above link to access the redone Space Marines.
Play tested my movie marines against some Chaos Space Marines, 1K of them Vs 800 pts of Space Marines. I actually had a hard time, but it was still not properly balanced. In melee, standard tactical marines are too powerful and my sergeant was an equal match for a Chaos dreadnought. I made some major changes, reducing the pts of all units, but reducing their stats significantly... Standard marine, for example, is Ws4, S5, T5 and A3 rather than Ws5, S6, T6 and A5. This makes them worse in melee and subject to instant death from S10 attacks. The pts reduction means, though, that they can take more special weapons which is neccessary... S5 bolters still can't penetrate those nasty 3+ saves and can't do anything against a charging dreadnough... I had to make it so that one of the dreads attempted to charge a marine, while the other two circled around and unloaded their bolters on its rear armor.
It was an interesting match that ended in a draw. The same battle would see 5 marines with a plasma gun and a sergeant with a power weapon and plasma pistol. Heavier fire power, but they wouldn't be able to take the same beating, nor would they be as effective in assault.
All files can be found at that link in the first post.
I really dont get the movie marines thing.
I get fluffy marines (i wrote myself fluffy marines and chaos marines (where armies are about 30 models in size and are pretty tough but not rediculous)
However, i do see some appeal with mashing your enemies with only 1 guy vs 30 smaller ones.
i not sure about the balance itself... but i do find it pretty hard to read through it. It doesnt read as a current codex and its pretty hard to select stuff from the inventory.
They're not that unfluffy in how powerful they are, just so you know... The higher command units are pretty beast, but I haven't been able to playtest them yet. I recently played a 1K pts match against Tyranid though, and I got destroyed.
The way I've set up the codex is more in tune to the old way GW did it. I find the new way they set up their codex was utterly confusing. I am much more inclined to like the way old codex's were built - armory, then single entries for each unit, with squad options in the unit and armory options for the commander.
The Ork codex is an example of this. When it comes to gameplay, unit art and keeping to the spirit of Orks, the codex does just that. No complaints with the new rules, but the way that the codex is set up is frustrating. I have to go to one page for each individual units rules and another for all their points. Secondly, each HQ/squad commander has their own personal armory. I'm not as pleased with that concept for codecies.
In any case... My list isn't too broken, not the "V2" one. The first codex is up there just to show how much of a change has come since then. The list would I think work really well supporting Guard in a larger fight, but because of the amount of saves a player will have to make, the Space Marines fail their saves and die eventually.
Not much fluff in a space marine Vs a carnifex.
tactical marine vs carnifex:
tactical marine goes first. Attacks carnifex with 2 scything talons.
hits on 3s. 2 hits. wounds on 5. 1 wound. carnifex fails. down to 3 wounds.
carnifex attacks. 2 attacks hits. 2 wound. 1 dead marine.
ok.. now lets try 2:
2 marines vs carnifex.
hits on 3s. 3 hits. wounds on 5. 2 wound. carnifex saves 1, fails other.
carnifex attacks. 1 attack hits this time. and it wounds. 1 marine down to 1 wound.
2 Marines: hit with 2 this time, but no wounds.
carnifex: hit with 2, wounds with 2. 1 dead 1 wounded. marine doesnt flee.
WTF!! i was under the impression that the great devourer's machine of destruction really has a chance to gut space marines left right and centre. Again, movie marines strike again.
the only reason you would field these is to recreate the ultramarine 1st company vs an army of genestealers.
I had two assault marines and a sergeant in close combat with a Carnifex and a squad of rippers, and I ended up with a sergeant at half-wounds, after two rounds of combat having killed only a few rippers and inflicting a single wound on the carnifex. Then the battle ended... But there was no way I was gonna win the fight, or the battle.
The squad had just come through 10 Genestealers and a Broodlord. The Genestealers took a round of up-close bolters and plasma guns, and had only a few models left and still managed to take out two marines and inflict a wound on my sarge.
That was the only Stealer squad. The rest of the army was gaunts, zone's a carny and a hive tyrant.
As for the rest... My Assault marines have one strength on the Carnifex, on top of it's greatly improved defenses.
And about the remark about me wanting to field the ultra-Vs-stealer fight, I've never read any of the Ultramarine stories. I understand the basic fluff, but find them generally boring. Honestly, the only stuff I've read with marines is Dark Apostle, Dark Adeptus, the Souldrinker triolgy omnibus, and the mentionings of Space Marines in Traitor General and the Eisenhorne trilogy. I've brought things down from the original movie marine... I truely believe this list to be fluffy given that Space Marines are now more vulnerable to instant death and still can't destroy in melee anything greater than a tank. No marine can last in combat, for example, against a comparable Dread. Chances of beating a WL are slim.
Each time I've played the MM's list, each failed save has been a huge loss to the force. It's not too hard to score 5 wounds in a round against a marine and to fail one or two saves and if you do, that's 80+pts scored. This list is pretty much a failure against horde armies.
Really, fluff marines and move marines are totally different.
in the souldrinkers omnibus, the souldrinkers panic when faced with imperial guard tanks, and i seem to remember the head of the force of loyalist marines (imperial fists?) was having a hell of a time trying to actually fight a dark eldar lord in close combat.
seriously, what have you playtested these against? Obviously not guard who have 0 chance of slicing down more than 1 for every 60 shots fired. half of those hit (30 ) and 1/6 wound. thats 5 wounds on average. and then 1/3 saves fail, so thats possibly 1 or 2 wounds. and thats just a crappy version of math hammer.
In all of the books you read, i bet you failed to notice that the space marines are infact, tactical. They dont run across open ground, firing bolters at 12 metre range or so. you will also notice that in fluff, generally, a meltagun does infact, maim a space marine to the point of death.
as for stealers vs ultramarines first company, its in 2 of the space marine codex's and the tyranid one, and mentioned quite often in most places.
I really hope you make a chaos one and give daemon princes toughness 10 (just because in all fluff, a daemon prince pretty much doesnt feel bolt pistol shots) and all chaos space marines require their enemies to make a ld test or they wet themselves and run away.
You're right, but there are other elements to the 'movies' that are different from the rules. Eldar and their darker cousins are supposed to be blindingly fast, so I've read. I'll admit what I've read in novels is very little, but I've heard quotes. The Dark Eldar commander is something like Ws 7 and I 6-8. With an Agonizer, he wounds on a 4+, with a Shadowfield has a 2+ inv save. If they're a Wych Cult Archite, they get a 4+ inv save without the Shadowfield in assault. I'll have my 3+ save, which is better than my potential 4+ or 5+ save and granted I'll have a lot of wounds, but I don't recall the Souldrinker Archon having even scored a hit on the Marine (though, if I'm wrong, I apoligize).
Granted my commanders are pretty powerful, but as I mentioned I still haven't had a chance to playtest them. I don't know how a battle between a decent Master/Captain equipped as the Imperial Fist commander and the Archon/Archite would go, and if youcan pull up some statistics that'd be great. Still, I don't think that a Archite/Archon will die too fast. As I recall, a single blow by the thunderhammer weilded by the commander felled it instantly.
Also, the Souldrinkers have very few heavy weapons and are thus unequipped to take out tanks. Fielding a Space Marine army with nothing better than a Plasma gun or meltagun and you're not going to have a significantly better time destroying enemy armor with the standard marine equivalently, considering how few bodies you'd have to back up the weapons.
Onto another point...
The equivalent to 60 Guardsmen at 6 pts each is about 7 marines, in my list. That's 14 wounds. In a straight up fire-fight from 13-24" away, I'll get about 14-15 kills per turn against the Guard's 1-2 wounds per turn. We'll interchange numbers each turn, high-to-low. We'll give Guardsmen the first turn since they have no cover, and they'd likely have cover in a battle like this first turn.
They'll get the 2 wounds, 1 kill this turn, 80 pts. Then Marines get 13 kills. Second turn, Guard have a 70% chance of inflicting a wound. That's pretty grim, but each wound inflicted is 40 pts. Guard will take another 13 casualties. By the end, they'll have taken 80-120 pts and inflicted 156.
With standard marines, I'll get 40 marines. First turn, Guard get 4 (again, full optimism) kills and take 16 casualties. Second turn, Guard inflict 2 wounds and Space Marines inflict 15 casualties. In two turns of firing, Imperial Guard have lost 186 pts and the Space Marines have lost 90.
EDIT: I made a mistake in the calculations. I pinned the Space Marines at 80 pts each rather than 90. This puts my army at 6 marines with some points left over. This would decrease the amount of kills given and increase the pain of each wound lost.
To make Ap3/2 weapons more effective, however, I am considering reducing standard marines saves from 3+ inv to 3+ armor/4+ invulnerable. This will make a S7+ weapon have a 83% chance to wound and a 33% to have the save fail, and turn it into 83%/50% making such weapons more useful.
I might also add that a demolisher cannon has a high chance of taking out marines who are clustered, since it insta-kills and wounds on a 2+. 3 casualties to a demolisher cannon shell would be the equivilant to losing 16 standard marines, and god forbid your commander or sergeant be under the template considering his T is still only 5`.
Last edited by The_Chaos_Seer; August 14th, 2008 at 00:49.
lol... actually, the dark eldar commander in the souldrinkers does. he cuts him if i remember correctly, but not even in a deadly way, just mocking him. the dark eldar lord only looses because of the actual situation they are in. trying not to do any spoilers for those who havent read it. dark eldar lords are actually ws 6 and can increase it to ws7, as well as being i7 which is fluffy.
I did write my own improved marines codex and what i did was say marines are T4 (5). that means that lascannons and melta weapons do slaughter them, but small arms fire doesnt.
Also, in gaunts ghosts Ghostmaker, a heavy bolter is pretty effective versus chaos marines.
I play inquisitor and so know how tough marines are supposed to be, but a full point of toughness is like taking a model from 100 to 170 toughness in inquisitor.
toughness 8 is a c'tan, toughness 7 is a really really tough carnifex, toughness 6 is a normal carnifex, toughness 5 is a daemon prince, toughness 4 is a space marine, toughness 3 is a human, toughness 2... doesnt exist i dont think. its pretty much the equivelent of a cat. toughness 1 is probably a mouse or something similar (at least cats dont have heart attacks when panicked).
if you reduced your space marines to about 45 points, made them T4 (5) and made their invunerable save 6+ they would be worth it i think.
If anyone believes on telekinesis, raise my hand!!