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I've been creating my own custom characters for my Greenskin army to serve as generic HQ models (Warphead, Big Mek, Warboss), but because I am trying to put a lot of unique character into their backgrounds and the way they function, I thought it'd be nice to put together casual datasheets for them. When I have all of the numbers finalized (after playtesting and such) I'm going to put it together on a PDF much like GW's datasheet releases.
Okay, now guys, I need your concerted efforts on rules and balancing. Ready?
I am working up a datasheet for my giant warboss (see this thread if you don't know what I'm talking about). I wanted to price him around or equivalent to Ghazzie or the new Calgar, and make him a Monstrous creature. I've been relying a fair bit on Calgar's new numbers, as I figure my boss is about his equivalent in ork terms.
Unit: Waaaghboss Gargrim "'Uge" Mungus
Type: Monstrous Creature
Weapons and Equipment:
> Waaagh! Banner
> Da Fistz 'Uv Gork 'An Mork:
Counts as two power klawz.
Ranged attack profile as follows:
Range 24", Str 5, AP4, Assault 3, Twin-linked
Feel No Pain
Fists of Unusual Size: Gargrim's fists are roughly the size of a Space Marine; even the most agile opponent is hard-pressed to avoid something so massive. Gargrim can re-roll all failed attempts to wound in close combat.
Proper Tuff: From his earliest days, Gargrim has been absurdly thick-skinned. Due to his immense size and toughness, Gargrim possesses a 4+ invulnerable save in addition to his normal 6+ armor save.
NOW it'z a FIGHT!: Gargrim is often bored silly, even in the thickest melee; he is often distracted and off-step until he faces a legitimate challenge. As such, he receives an additional +1 attack when reduced below three wounds.
This is what I've put together so far. Bottom line is that he gets 7 rerollable-wound PK hits in CC on the charge (5 base, +1 for two klawz, +1 for charging) , which is probably too much. Part of me thinks it's underpriced, but I think based on Calgar's new 250-point price and the absurd things he can do (reroll shooting wounds, orbital bombardment, anyone in the damn army can pass or fail morale at will) it's reasonably fair.
As far as the guns go, he gets a higher volume of shots than Calgar does, but Calgar's are BS5 AP2, whereas Gargrim's are BS2 AP4. Also Calgar can reroll his wounds on shooting.
I also sort've want to work his grot helper (Urk) in somehow, but I can't think of anything aside from counting him as a Waaagh! banner (since he's holding a banner).
Am I nuts? I've tried giving up Calgar's ranged ability and armor save for more of a close combat character, and I've swapped some of his special rules around for orky equivalents. Help me refine this.
Last edited by Ein; September 22nd, 2008 at 02:04.
I know it's silly trying to defend points cost for custom-made characters, as they're always open for abuse and it's safer to overcost than undercost. Just for comparison, though, I was messing around with making a Hive Tyrant of comparable stats.
For 165 points, I can put together something with almost the same stat line.. WS6, BS3, S5, T6, 4W, I5, 5 attacks, LD10, 2+ armor save and 6+ inv.
It has one less wound, but I consider the higher BS and I to balance that out in terms of cost. Let's call it 170, though.
Since there's no equivalent to power klaws in the nid roster that I can see, let's pay +50 points for 2 power klaws (+25 points each is what it costs a Nob to get them). We're at 220.
Switching a 2+/6+i for a 6+/4+i/FNP is I think about an even trade, though I think the 2+ is in general more survivable. (I am not good enough with statistics to tell, but I think a 1/6 chance of taking a wound is better than a 1/2, and then a 1/2 after that... so 1/4 chance to take a wound from anything at all, with a 4+/FNP? I'm not sure that's too bad.) Obviously there are higher AP weapons that will screw with the results of that.
The difference in shooting is pretty significant. The tyrant I put together has none. The boss is wearing what is essentially a Warbike on his arms in terms of ranged weaponry. A warbike costs 25 points, and comes with a rider with 2 wounds who is not that bad in CC and a built in 4+ cover save. I think for just the gun and based off the cost of a Big Shoota (10 points, 36" range, same stats as the warbike, but no twin-linking), adding 15 points to the cost is reasonable, which brings us to 235.
The special rules (reroll wounds in CC, +1A when under 3 wounds) make up the rest of the cost. It's probably underpriced in terms of what you get for that (270 is fairer). Still, if you think of the cost of a pair of lightning claws which allow rerolls versus the +50 we added for two power klawz, it's not that bad.
Alright, after a bit of discussion and mental theoryhammering, this is the revised datasheet. It needs playtesting at this point, I think.
Okay, here's the current statline for the boss as of right now, with all the changes in place. I think it needs playtesting now.
Unit: Waaaghboss Gargrim"'Uge" Mungus
Weapons and Equipment:
> Waaagh! Banner
> Da Fistz 'Uv Gork 'An Mork: Counts as two power klawz. Ranged attack profile as follows: Range 24", Str 5, AP4, Assault 3, Twin-linked
Feel No Pain
Hamma-Handz: Gargrim's fists are roughly the size of a Space Marine, and hit like a runaway trukk. Gargrim can re-roll all failed attempts to wound in close combat.
Proppa Tuff: From his earliest days, Gargrim has been absurdly thick-skinned. Due to his immense size and toughness, Gargrim possesses a 4+ invulnerable save in addition to his normal 6+ armor save.
NOW it'z a FIGHT!: Gargrim is often bored silly, even in the most desperate melee; he is often distracted and off-step -sometimes to the point of nodding off - until he faces a legitimate challenge. As such, he receives an additional +1 attack when reduced below three wounds.
Biggest an' Best: With Gargrim's legendary bulk comes an ego to match - one that views most ork boyz as inferior and expendable. Gargrim will only join units of Nobz or Mega-Armored Nobz. Additionally, he may be targeted separately from any unit he has joined, though he remains an Infantry model.
Make Room, ye Gitz!: Gargrim may only be transported in vehicles with a passenger capacity of 20 or more - otherwise da trukk tips over. Gargrim's massive frame and penchant for comfort cause him to take up a full five spots in any transport vehicle.
If you want to make Urk more a part of this model perhaps you should give Mungus BS3 (grots have bs 3) and say that when shooting, Urk gives his fearless boss advice on how to fire.
I can't really think of anything else which would implement him more but I'll do some brainstorming if ya want.
I like him.
And I love the model.
The FnP seems a little over powered until the rule where he can always be targeted.
The only other one is his transport. That could make him very difficult to take down, seeing as he cannot be wounded until he disembarks.
I think he needs some playtesting really.
Arch Overfiend & Grand Despot
I currently play:
Doom Eagle Space Marines
Hive Fleet Omega Tyranids
Goff Ork Boyz(dead)
Tau of O'me
Inquisitorial Xeno Hunters
and my attempted foray into fantasy
'Dark Angel Green' Dark Elves in need of fluff
Love it, looks good.
Allowing him to go on a transport is a bit much. On the other hand, its good that you made the other change he really needed:Thats a pretty good rule. If he couldn't be targetted, then it'd be a bit much for someone of his power.Biggest an' Best: With Gargrim's legendary bulk comes an ego to match - one that views most ork boyz as inferior and expendable. Gargrim will only join units of Nobz or Mega-Armored Nobz. Additionally, he may be targeted separately from any unit he has joined, though he remains an Infantry model.
Overall he seems well-costed to me. Even if he's not perfectly costed yet, he's in the correct range that I know I wouldn't mind playing against him, especially in an apok game.
As for a 4++ save and FNP, its worse than a 2+ save against low-powered weapons (3/12 chance to lose a wound compared to a 2/12 chance), but its better against high ap weapons (100% compared to a 1/2 chance of getting wounded). I think it works out well. I'm still against a him riding a transport... He's pretty much two CC fexes in close combat. Would you be willing to face 2 CC fexes riding transports?
40K armies: Tyranids (2001), Space Wolves (2008), Sisters of Battle (2011)
Current Rep: 1337
The transports thing may change. I thought the restriction on what could carry him was a good addition, as it basically means the only thing he can board is a battlewagon that doesn't have a Killkannon, and Battlewagons are not particularly fast - certainly no faster than just having him on the board and running. Admittedly, it does offer him some protection, but wagons are also not the cheapest ride to purchase.
Also, I think if Calgar (Who is just as much a monster in CC) can ride across the field in a Land Raider with his Honor Guard inside, a wagon's probably fair. You could make the same argument about any big, expensive character - Abbadon, Ghazzie, they can all hop on some sort of vehicle and stomp faces in.
Still, you might be right. I didn't want to forbid riding in vehicles across the board, because I figured in Apoc Games it'd be hilarious to put him ontop of a Gargantuan Squiggoth, but if playtesting determines him to be too powerful I'll make him a pure footslogga.
Being his fists are 'uge, and origionally you said it would be hard to avoid them, I think it would make a bit more sense if he got to re-roll 'to hit' rolls. Other than that, I think you might be able to have Urk as a grot, not adding any wounds, but being able to take shots at foes with a grot blasta, and have an attack in CC, adding the points for a normal grot, and making it so that when gargrim dies, Urk dies with him. And with the transport rule, Urk would still be on Gargrims' shoulder, so he wouldn't take up a slot in the transport capacity.
How dare you speak out against LO! I shall beat you with a giant inflatable duck and then ban you to the lowest level of hell! ~Karmoon
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This is obviously anecdotal evidence, but I just finished with some playtesting of Gargrim, and I could not be happier. Priced at 250, he seems to be pretty great.
Some testing results:
Gargrim and a max sized Nobz Mob with 4 Big Choppas, 3 Power Klawz, a Painboy, and all Cybork Bodies (625 points) pitted against Marneus Calgar (new marine dex) with an honor guard and champion (also 625 points). We started the units 4d6" away from eachother, which resulted in a 13" separation between the two units. Calgar's marines rolled for the first turn in our test, and they stayed in place, shooting with their boltguns. Nothing was wounded thanks to the 5+ invulns of the regular nobz. Gargrim weathered Calgar's special stormbolters without trouble.
Ork turn: Orks advanced 6". We did not use a Waaagh! for this, because it did not seem fair to introduce to the test game, so they were left at 7" away from the Marines. Orks shot, Gargrim's gun took out one honor guard but that was it.
Marines assaulted the orks in the following turn. They took out 5 nobz, while the nobz in turn were able to dispatch 5 of the honor guard. Calgar swung at Gargrim and put three wounds on the big guy. We discovered a flaw in my rules: Does he get the +1 A from being under 3 wounds if it happens at the same time he's swinging at? (I1). We said no, it would happen next turn, so Gargrim got his 6 attacks back, but failed to actually wound Calgar thanks to Calgar's invulnerable.
Following turn: The marines drop a Nob and the painboy, leaving me with 3 PK nobz and Gargrim. PK nobz swung back, and killed all of the rest of the honor guard. Gargrim swung at Calgar, put one wound on him. Calgar swung back at Gargrim, and killed the giant ork.
Following turn: Calgar swings at the PK nobz, kills them all. Simultaneously, PK nobz all swing at Calgar, and kill him.
Conclusion: 625 points of Calgar and Honor Guard and 625 points of Gargrim and Nobz both annihilated eachother to the man, leaving nothing left on the board. I consider that a perfect stalemate, and pretty good indication of balance. I think if the orks had charged, they would have come out on top, but also in the interest of fairness they would have been shot at a lot more by the marine army in a normal game, so there wouldn't have been as many of them. All in all, I consider the fact that they completely stalemated a great sign.
Durability test: This one was a bit sillier, but we just wanted to see how long it took 250 points of Devastators to bring down 250 points of Gargrim. Gargrim started at 48" away across the board, and ran every turn for an average of 8 inches. He was pretty easy to slay with lascannon fire; 15 shots were fired, 9 of them wounded, and he failed 5 of those saves. At the time he died, he was 20" away from the devastators, and had shot his gun once, with one of the shots hitting and wounding but not causing a casualty. I think with the ease he can be picked out and destroyed by heavier weapons, allowing him to go in a Battlewagon is a reasonable tradeoff, especially considering that a Wagon is expensive and is not that fast of a transport and if you're using it to get him to the front lines it won't be able to use any of it's expensive weapons.
Lastly, we played a 1,500 game featuring Gargrim in a wagon with Nobz against terminators, tactical marines, and dreadnoughts. In general Gargrim did not feel overpowered, largely because the Nobz were making a ridiculous number of saves and doing a ton of damage - there was a lot of luck involved on the ork side in this one. Gargrim actually rarely even got to hit the things that were assaulted, because his Nobz retinue pretty much killed everything before he had the chance. I don't consider this evidence of much, honestly, because the Nobz made about 1000% more saves than they should have been able to with only their 5+ invuln cybork bodies, but at least Gargrim didn't end up overpowering things.
Overall: I am pretty happy with the way this has worked out so far. I need to test against other opponents than standard marines, which will come in the next few days, but for now he seems excellent. I still can't get over the fact that he and Calgar completely stalemated. I consider that a great success.