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I was just thinking about the way in which armies slowly creep towards becoming elite fighting forces rather than necessarily conforming to their background.
So for example High Elf armies rarely consist of rank upon rank of spearmen while Skaven forces are often merely a collection of powerful warmachines and their weapons.
I think one way of changin this is to make static CR more powerful.
An obvious area which can be expanded is outnumbering.
Outnumbering CR bonus
+1 if you outnumber the enemy
+1 If you outnumber the enemy by 10 or more
+1 ifor each full 10 US after outnumbering the enemy by 10.
So for example a unit of knights crashes into a unit of Goblins. After combat has been resolved the unit strength of the Goblins is 33 while the Knights US is 10.
The difference is 23
The goblins get
+1 for outnumbering
+1 for having 10 or more
+1 for having an additional full US of 10.
So the goblins get an additional +3 CR.
I think this might make large units of core troops more viable than they presently are.
Aye that would be an excellent way of doing it, apart from when you have Deathstar units like 60 Chaso Warriors with certain characters, marks and magical items in their midst. That type of unit will be getting an additional +2 CR on TOP of what it gets normally...
And ranking up units to form a file 5 wide and 20 deep has a limited combat effect - at some point you are just going to end up crushing your mates in front...
I would suggest that you get +1 CR for every rank of 10 or more that you have, on top of the normal CR for having ranks, and the maximum you can get thus is +3 ranks +an additional 3 for having 10 models per rank. This will TRULY elevate cheap units as they are realistically the only types of unit that can get this sort of bonus, whilst still allowing flank charges and rear charges to screw them over. It also doesn't impact magical items or abilities which may, for example, double the rank bonus, as this could be called a "formation" bonus....it also means you don't need to bother counting how many troops you outnumber your enemy by, it is simply an additional source of SCR...
Sounds like you have taken my idea and made it more efficient.
As long as the end point is to take cheap units and give them a more central place in an army.
Last edited by Visitor Q; June 23rd, 2009 at 23:01.
Ive always thought that something like:
+1 for outnum
+2 for outnum by x2 or more
+3 for x3 or more
etc (these are non cumulative)
Similar system, but yeah massive hoard numbers really should be rewarded somehow. Poor gobbos cant kill much
Ofcourse, its likely that GW have playtested something along these lines before, and it probably turned out to be unbalanced or something.
I always thought phoenixs idea was good when it was in use! Also i dont think it would be over powerful as any unit that big is ether going to be weak i.e goblins in which case template weapons could easy cut numbers down, or any shooting for that matter. Or the unit will be expensive that the rest of the army will be effected so that more can consentrate on that unit getting other things such as flank attack. If the unit was also big it would come to reaosn just to hit it with a number of units anyway again leveling the playing field with numbers.
Now if you went head to head with a unit that size and used them out number rules you would deserve to lose for been plain silly.
"Should take you a while though because of your sloth like pace"
Click here and watch Gedderz try and cross the road
I can see where you guys are going with this but I think the combat res for outnumbering is fine. I personally dont think it should go up anymore. I play WoC and fluff wise I dont see why my warriors would even care about outnumber or any of that stuff. It works for game mechanics, but my warrior should be happy to see a mass of goblins to kill. In some cases of this game its like a full grown man fighting children. Would you care if you were fighting toddlers and they outnumbered you? I think that would be comparable to chaos warriors and goblins.
Fluffing attacks and breaking against stuff like goblins and empire infantry is just frustrating especially when it makes no sense in reality.
I see your point. Certainly if these outnumbering rules were used the trade off would be fear causing creatures would have to more than double their opponent to cause auto break.
I don't think outnumbering completly represents necessarily the intimidation factor but also the idea that hoardes of Goblins getting under the warriors feet, dragging them down getting in behind them pressing so close the warriors can't use their superior skill and so forth.
I mean the other idea would to bring back lapping round.
Basically in previous editions of warhammer if you won combat and had a spare rank after the fourth (I think) you could bring five men around into your enemies flank. This obviously gave you the bonus of a flank attack.
Eventually you could end up completly surrounding a unit.
I always see combats as kind of a dynamic mini story. So if chaos warriors fluff their attacks and lose three of their number in return this might actually represent that humble empire champion turning out to be a mighty hero in the making, rather than the Chaos warriors all tripping up at the same time.
Last edited by Visitor Q; July 17th, 2009 at 10:32.
Ya I just love my chaos warriors and think that they are all mini juggernaughts. 8 foot tall killing machines in plate from head to toe that worship gods unquestioning even though they mutate and torture them. These guys should be hard.
If it were up to me SCR shouldnt even matter. My badass warriors fight like spartans and just funnel the front rank and kill them over and over again. Chaos warriors never sleep or tire so its just more bloody fun for them. I wish they would have made WoC with some better leadership or stubborn to kind of show this. Im just ranting and complaining now though.
But overall I like the idea you are shooting for. I just think rules like this could start promoting some monster size units. Goblins are what 2 or 3 points each. You start giving them bonuses for more than 3 ranks and an outnumber and they will get pretty darn good. A bunch of 50+ units of these guys wouldnt cost much and would really become a little OP for their cost with these added benefits.
Just some of my input. The thing where a far back row can flank is pretty cool though and makes sense.
The fact is that big battalions still won that type of static battleline warfare. Cavalry coralled units and attack flanks, whilst the main lines clashed. Even Chaos Warriors are not utterly implacable, and they rightly SHOULD get steamrollered by a horde of gobbos without number, as they can't possibly defend against every attack or kill every enemy at their feet. I think the analogy of adults fighting toddlers is a little weak - Gobbos are almost as skilled as a grown man with asahrp stick, are as strong and tough (in game) and whilst they may die in droves, they are certainly vicious foes in combat, especially as "ankle biters"
I think if outnumbering were given a better weighting it would truly make WHFB the game it should be with emphasis on deep blocks with a reasonable frontage. manouvre would play a bigger part, elite troops could get unfairly penalised, but remember that most elite troops going at the enemy unsupported HAVE been overcome by hordes of inferior foes - the Spartans at Thermopylae, the elite Macedonian Phalanx vs the tighter and more flexible Roman phalanx, the Huscarls of King Harold, the "Old Guard" of Napoleon etc etc
A Chaos horde army would still benefit to a good degree with deep blocks of Marauders, but the Chaos Warriros themselves would be support units angling for the sides of opposing units, and trying to break them that way.
Yes your points are valid. Most warfare like this is usually against hordes of less talented troups. Im not a huge history buff but from the little attention I paid when we read the illiad and from the movies (bad reference point I know) it seemed like single elite soldiers could really sway a battle line. Achillies is the example I think of. But I may be completely wrong with how much of an effect single skilled men really played. Just thought Id toss that in there.
There is one problem I do see with this new system of warhammer though, and it is the fact that armies would get bigger. Bigger armies means more models which means more painting which a lot of players may not like. I personally dont use marauders because they are tough to paint and to use them effectively Id have to paint 20-25 per unit.
The 2000-2250 point range probably has a general range of 50-100 models per army. The extremes can be more or less but I believe this catches the majority. A new system like this would almost easily double this. This could push away a number of players. And elite style armies will lose their nitch. HE, Demons, and WoC for the most part wont have many answers to this new style of play.