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"Bjorn's finest": +350 pointsformation:Bjorn the fell handed +
2+ dreadnoughts (chosen from the space wolves codex).
options: Bjorn and the dreadnoughts may choose any options they are allowed in their codex and:
Elite dreadnought armour+130 points (80 for Bjorn,see rule)
Combat cannon+80 points (1 only).
Weapon RANGE str AP Special
Combat cannon 60" 8 4 heavy 2d6, special rending **
stampede!!!: Nothing can really stop a horde of dreadnoughts:
Instead of moving all dreadnoughts can stampede!! move all dreadnoughts 3d6 (As long as none of them are immobilized), in a straight line forward. Any unit (friend or foe) hit by a dread take 3 d3 str6 hits! If during the stampede any dread hits a building or other vehicle, all dreadnoughts halt and they each take 1 glancing hit on their front armour.The dreadnoughts may still assualt after this maneuver but may only shoot ONE weapon.
Elite dreadnought armour:Any dreadnought with this upgrade has AV of 13 all round (Bjorn as 14 all round).Dreadnoughts with this upgrade also benefit from Bjorn's save.
Repair:If one dreadnought is immobilized no dreadnoughts may move. At the beginning of your turn, any dreadnought in your unit is immobilized, on a 5+ it is fixed and may move and shoot normally in the following turn.
Fire at will:All dreadnoughts may fire at different targets.
**Causes instant death on a roll of a 4+ (Normal saves apply).
What do you think?
Last edited by username1; October 8th, 2009 at 19:17.
Hey there. A few things need to be clarified. Each in turn:
"options: Bjorn and the dreadnoughts may choose any options in their codex and:"
What exactly does that mean? There are a lot of options in the codex, including psi powers, jump packs, termin armor, etc.
"Combat cannon 8 4 heavy 2d6, special rending*"
You need to include a range. Also, by "automatically wounding on a 4+," what that seems to indicate is that the dreadnought will ONLY wound on a 4+, including those models with a lower toughness. Although, I don't think this is what you mean to say. Sounds very much like the Poison mechanic. What's more, I'm not sure why you'd include this feature in the profile, as dreads have a modified strength of 10, and nothing can legally have a toughness greater than 10. Aside from Apocalypse games, I doubt you'll run into anything with a toughness greater than 8. Even then, the dread is wounding on a 2+. Does this make sense?
3d6 averages out to be 10.5" of movement. Once you factor in that there are three dreads in this formation, then the average distance is reduced to only 7.5". That's only netting the dreads an additional 1.5" of movement, and at the expense of firing all their weaponry. I don't think this is a very effective mechanic.
In addition, you need to specify whether the dreads can assault after performing this Special Rule, just to be clear to your audience.
Spambot kill tally. . .337
I like the idea of an elite dreadnought data sheet, but the either this is way overpowered or you would need to add alot of points on to do it.
Being able to have cheaply AV12 dreads with 4+ saves with one for 25pts more having an avergae of 7 S8 AP4 shots which cause insta-death on a 4+ seems a bit much.
I forgot to ask, does your formation take up a single HQ slot, or do they remain in their traditional FO slot?
Combat Cannon: This will pretty much manage any vehicle in the game. Plus, if you equip it onto Bjorn, then you're hitting on a 2+. For calculating cost, I've used the basic missile launcher template, which runs "x" points (I cannot actually list the points due to copyright infringement). The Combat Cannon will average 7 shots per turn, and while the AP is only 4 (as opposed to the missile launcher), the rending is a comparable mechanic. Given this, I couldn't see this cannon costing any less than 80 points.
Math: Cost of missile launcher times 2d6 Combat Cannon shots (average being 7) = 70 points. Then there's the added range of the Combat Cannon when compared to the missile launcher. I gave an estimate to this as worth 10 points, bringing the total to 80 points.
Stampede: Just to be clear, by "unit" you mean "squad," right? Considering the potency of the Combat Cannon, I don't really see many scenarios when I'd rather "Stampede" over shooting that massive ranged weapon. Still, this mechanic also adds points to the overall cost of the formation. I'm not exactly sure how to calculate it, but the movement modifier effectively grants the dreads a 12" movement. This same option in non-Marine codices generally runs 20 points. Then, there's damage inflicted on any infantry the dreads pass through. Hard to put a price on this, but I'd reckon somewhere around 15 to 20 points. On the other hand, there is indeed a drawback built into this mechanic, which is the chance of taking a glancing hit. It's a small hindrance, considering no competent player would ever run these dreads into vehicles or buildings. However, it's still something to consider.
Elite Dreadnought Armor: Again, I'm having to refer to a non-space marine codex in order to put a price on this upgrade. Back in 3rd edition chaos, there was an option called Mutated Hull. It added +1 to each armor value of any vehicle and cost "x" points (again, cannot list the exact cost). Furthermore, mutated Hull could not be taken more than once, so at best, you could put it on a chaos dread to increase it's armor to 13 front and sides and 11 back. Now, in regards to Elite Dread Armor, a rough price for 13 front and sides and 11 back would be 30 points, but then, you're also increasing the rear armor to 13, which would in the very least increase the point cost to 40. Bjorn, on the other hand, is gaining +1 front armor, +2 side, and +3 or 4 to his rear. I can't recall off hand what his rear armor is. He's become a walking land raider. Cost for bjorns elite armor = 50-60 points
Repair: Not a bad option. However, most vehicles that can "repair" themselves are not permitted to move during the same round. In effect, they spend that round repairing. For example, immobilized chaos rhinos can "repair" on a role of a 6 and are then allowed to move as normal the following turn. Of course, you've incorporated a major hindrance, which is the fact that a single immobilized dreadnought renders the other dreads incapable of moving. That's a nice touch. Then again, with your repair of a 3+ and being able to move them on the same turn you repair pretty much makes this mechanic broken. In addition, when a chaos rhino repairs, it cannot do anything else that turn (i.e,. cannot shoot its weapon). The real advantage to your Repair is that you can pretty much prevent your dreads from every truly being immobilized. That's insane, to be honest. The way it stands, this ability is easily worth 40-60 points for the entire squad (i.e., all three dreads)
Fire at Will: Makes sense.
"All dreadnoughts benefit from bjorn's save and is increased to 4+": Increasing an armor save by 1 point costs about 20 points (i.e., bjorn gaine +1 to his armor save). However, for the other dreadnoughts, who have no save at all, we would effectively be adding 3 points of armor save (i.e., taking them from no armor save to a 4+). Does this make sense? Consequently, the price for this would be 60 points per each non-bjorn dread (i.e., 20 points per armor save increase)
"Causes instant death on 4+": Ok, let's see. Carnifexes are immune to instant death, as are daemon princes and greater daemons. Therefore, this would really only affect Nob Bikers, oblits, lone wolves. Even marine HQs aren't any more affected by this than they would be if they took any other S8 hit, which would also instant kill them.
Alright, there you have it. If it were up to me, I'd price your data sheet out at like this:
Elite dreadnought armour+130 points (100 for Bjorn)
Combat cannon+80 points (1 only).
Spambot kill tally. . .337
According to my vehicle design rules (which I have found to be quite a good way to judge points for things like this), the elite dreadnought armor would cost this amount:
+56 pts for Bjorn
+34 pts for each Dreadnought
I think for this datasheet, you could assume 2 Dreads and Bjorn for a flat cost of 125 pts. This would make incentivize including more than 2 Dreads, which I don't see a problem with for Apoc games. The link to my VDR is in my signature if you're interested.
The combat cannon seems a bit much for 25 pts. You're getting an average of 7 S8 shots from each one. In an effort to balance this out, I would suggest either lowering it to S6 AP6 or going with a lower number of shots, such as D6 or 2+D3.
Aside from these two things, I think you've got a nice thing going here.
--•-My 40K projects-•--
Last edited by username1; October 8th, 2009 at 17:52.
Basic Dread Elite Armor-
13AV all around
Repair (on a 5+)
Also, to let you know, the end costs I listed at the bottom of my previous post included all upgrades you've designed except for the Combat Cannon (Stampede, Repair, 4+ save, increased AV). It seems you've now significantly raised your costs even above what I've suggested.
Last edited by Rabbit; October 8th, 2009 at 18:28.
Spambot kill tally. . .337
I'm not getting you Rabbit.What have i priced higher than you said? Let me edit it a bit.