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i absolutely hate fighting necrons! monoliths are a pain in the arse and the troops are super tough but even so necrons need help and seeing as i'm bored (especially at work) i've tinkered around with the statistics of the necron troop standard (and will be doing more as the weeks go by). so without further ado:
Necron Warriors: unit size 5-10, 15pts per model
WS: 2 BS: 3 S: 3 T: 5 W: 1 I: 2 A: 1 Ld: 8 Sv: 2+/5+
Weapon: Gauss <something or rather>: S AP Range Type Special Rules: always wounds on a 6+, add 3 to the d6 for penetrating vehicles 3 5 24' Rapid fire
note: there is no we'll be back save!!!!
weaker against shooting/melee but count as having S6 weaponry against vehicles, this unit is now more of a bulk style unit making lower points games more flexible for necron players.
note: changed invunerable save to a 5+ to make them different from Flayed ones.
dropped warrior points by 5.
naturally the lord and other units will have better attack stats ect. or abilities to increase other unit powers so what i want to know is whether this stat line up will be balanced/interesting and allow variation in an army of zombie machines.
Last edited by Gintoki; March 25th, 2010 at 06:17. Reason: changing units to reflect the critique.
continuing on from yesterday i've made another 3 units whilst at work (yay for coles) them being, immortals, pariahs and the monolith!!
Immortals: 30pts unit size: 3-10
WS: 3 BS: 4 S: 3 T: 6 W: 2 I: 1 A: 1 Ld: 10 Sv: 2+/4+ invunerable
Weapon: Gauss super ripping weapon!
S AP Range Type
4 5 18" assault 5 Rending ( D6+3 for penetration against vehicles)
the idea for these immortals is to be the line breakers able to walk down the middle of the battlefield and give the opponent some hell
Pariah: 50pts unit size: 1-5
WS: 4 BS: 2 S: 5 T: 6 W: 2 I: 3 A: 2 Ld: 10 Sv: 2+/4+ invunerable
Weapons: War scythe, gauss super flamer
Psychic Voids: enemy units within 12" of a Pariah cannot sweeping advance or consolidate after winning combat
Gauss super Flamer!! SX Ap 2 flamer
Always wounds on a 3+ and has 2D6+3 penetration against vehicles
(remember that warscythes work wonders against vehicles anyway so the flamer really is an added bonus)
in this form pariahs are meant to completely sure up the necron army lines as an anti charge unit
Front: 14 Side 14 Rear: 14
Living metal: all its normal rules apply
Internal Power Matrix: each turn the necron player can do one of the following actions: Particle Whip, Summon Drones, Teleport, energize, Repair. Each function counts as a monolith weapon and therefore can be shot off.
Particle whip: range 24", S4 Ap 5 Gauss (always wounds on a 6 and +3 for vehicle penetration) Ordinance.
Summon Drones: summons d3 drone bases which arrive at the monolith door.
Teleport: Scatter one ally or enemy unit 3D6 inches within 24" of the monolith during the shooting phase, if the scatter die lands on the target the player controlling the monolith decides the direction, when placing the models in their new location treat it like placing models from deep strike. models teleported in this fashion ignore the ordinary rules which would lead them to being destroyed, instead place them as close as legally possible to the location.
Energize: during the shooting phase one necron unit within 12" of the monolith, can increase their initiative by 2, strength by 1 and weapon skill by 2
Repair: during the shooting phase one necron unit within 18" can be summoned to the monolith door, this unit automatically rallies (even if it were impossible to do before) and roll a D6 for each casualty in that unit on a 5 or 6 the model returns to the unit with one wound.
Destroying a Monolith weapon: it's random Roll a D6 and consult the table to see what you have blown off
3. Particle Whip
the main changes i'm aiming for with this monolith is to change it from a vindicator with better armour to a support unit which can substantially buff the necron force without being complete god mode.
immortals have a 4+ invunerable, S4 gun now also assault 5
pariahs' flamers now always wound on a 3+ (super terminator killers)
Monolith: living metal change removed, scatter is now 3D6 instead of 2D6, added a new function "energize", changed repair to function as a "repair", drone summon added.
Last edited by Gintoki; March 25th, 2010 at 06:19. Reason: changing units to increase their power
In my opinion, this is taking Necrons in the wrong direction. Our army is (mostly) fine as it is. All that is necessary is a few select tweaks and cost reductions.
- Fix Gauss (+1 to vehicle damage chart - being able to wreck on a glancing hit is all it needs)
- Fix Pariah (FNP or Inv. Save)
- Fix Necron rule (Add Stubborn to help against sweeping advances)
- Flayed Ones as Troops (add Rending)
- Wraiths with Rending
- Heavy Destroyers get twin-linked
- Tomb Spyders can swap Particle Projector for a S6 AP4 Gauss Flamer
In my opinion, anything else is just overkill.
Even at the risk of sounding like unpolite jerk: Dude, you have to be kidding!
That is in no way worth 20 pts. That is in no way an improvement of any kind.
First of all, 3+ armor save, 4+ WBB and Resurrection orb in current (3rd ed.) codex already gives us an effective 2+/4+ instead of the 2+/6+ you suggest. So giving 2+/6+ with no WBB is actually a drop in survivability.
Secondly, the only reason necron warrios ever are able to do anything in close-combat is WS 4 and S 4 which give us a reasonable chance of inflicting enough wounds on enemy to avoid losing CC and getting swept off the table by sweeping advance. If you drop necron warriors to WS 2, S 3 the T 5 and 2+/6+ does not improve their survivability. They still get ripped to shreds by marine power fist sergeants and being almost incapable of hurting the marines back they auto-lose the CC are pretty much guaranteed to lose the sweeping and get rolled up into nice metallic pizza.
MEQ Example to illustrate the point:
5 Marines (sergeant with power fist) charge 10 Necrons, current (3rd ed.) codex
Marines hit 15 times on 3+, wound on 4+, save 3+/WBB
Powerfist hits 1 times on 3+, wound 2+, WBB
Average of 2.22 casualties caused for combat resolution/1,11 casualties caused after WBB
Necrons hit 10 times on 3+, wound on 4+, save 3+
Average of 1.11 casualties caused
5 Marines (sergeant with power fist) charge 10 Necrons, your suggestion
Marines hit 15 times on 3+, wound on 5+, save 2+
Powerfist hits 1 times on 3+, wound 2+, no save
Average of 1.11 casualties caused
Necrons hit 10 times on 4+, wound on 5+, save 3+
Average of 0.55 casualties caused
In both examples the necrons likely have to pass a Ld 9 to avoid sweeping advance but if they do pass it in current rules the WBB will even the combat to 4 marines vs. 9 warriors next turn. In your rules the next turn is quite likely to be 5 marines vs. 9 necrons. Lets continue this to next round:
4 Marines (sergeant with power fist) vs. 9 Necrons, current (3rd ed.) codex
Marines hit 8 times on 3+, wound on 4+, save 3+/WBB
Powerfist hits 1 times on 3+, wound 2+, WBB
Average of 1.43 casualties caused for combat resolution/0.72 casualties caused after WBB
Necrons hit 9 times on 3+, wound on 4+, save 3+
Average of 1.00 casualties caused
5 Marines (sergeant with power fist) vs. 9 Necrons, your suggestion
Marines hit 10 times on 3+, wound on 5+, save 2+
Powerfist hits 1 times on 3+, wound 2+, no save
Average of 1.11 casualties caused
Necrons hit 9 times on 4+, wound on 5+, save 3+
Average of 0.50 casualties caused
Again, necrons likely have to pass the Ld 9 to avoid being swept, but if they do it again in current rules the next round is likely to be 3 marines vs. 8 or 9 necrons while in your suggestion it would be 4 or 5 marines vs. 8 necrons.
When you add to this CC example the fact that your suggestion drops BS to 3, making warriors miss 11% more of their shots when the marines are closing in to assault distance the end result is that for 20 pts/model you get worse warriors than at current 18 pts/model.
I will also agree with the general gist of what Polaria said, although I do question his maths, or at least his representation of the maths.
I mean, 5 marines (sergeant with fist) against 10 warriors in the current dex would be 8 normal marine attacks (1 A + 1 for charging) which hit on a 4+ (WS 4 vs WS 4), wound on a 4+ (S 4 vs T 4) and have to get past the 3+ save and those attacks allow WBB. Then the warrior survivors hit back with the exact same conditions apart from marines not having WBB, then the sergeant fist hits with 2/3 attacks (can't remember if the sergeant has base 1 or 2 attacks) which still need a 4+ to hit but wound on a 2+ and don't allow WBB (unless there's a res orb nearby).
Against Warriors of Gintoki's suggestions, the marines would hit on 3+, wound on 5+ and warriors would save on 2+, then the warriors would still hit on 4+ (iirc, the WS charts are a bit odd), wound on a 5+ and the marines save on a 3+, then the fist hits on a 3+, wounds on a 2+ and the warriors get a 6+ save.
So that's warriors that are a bit better at surviving normal attacks, worse at returning attacks and get even more boned by powerfists and the like.
Oh, and they're more vulnerable to being swept because he's dropped their leadership to 8.
And they're more expensive than before.
And their gun is worse.
And their shooting is worse.
[sarcasm] Oh boy, they do sure sound great [/sarcasm] :rolleyes:
Of course in a vacuum they sound really, really bad, but if there are other units intended to support them that boost their abilities then they might be ok (and it would have been a good idea to post them together with a clue as to what those boosts would be) but as or right now Necrons already has that in a way where other units support each other's abilities.
5 Marines (sergeant with power fist) charge 10 Necrons, current (3rd ed.) codex.
Necrons have Resurrection Orb nearby.
4 Marines attack 8 times @ 4+ to Hit, 4+ to Wound, 3+ Save = 0.66/0.33 wounds.
1 Sergeant attacks 3 times @ 4+ to Hit, 2+ to Wound, No save = 1.24/0.62 wounds.
Round up wounds. 2 Necron Warriors killed.
8 Warriors attack 8 times @ 4+ to Hit, 4+ to Wound, 3+ Save = 0.66 wounds.
So one turn of combat assuming the Marine Player assaults results in 0.66 Marines dead and 1.90/0.95 Necrons dead (before/after We'll Be Back).
Conclusion: Necron Warriors are just about able to hold their own against small units as it is. Nerfing their combat ability would be a mistake. They don't need upping in Toughness or a better save either. T4/3+ is fine, because we have Resurrection Orbs. Why you think dropping them to WS2, BS3 and S3 'helps' them I have no idea.
see my problem with necron design is simply that they are tougher space marines with some extra perks, ideally necrons shouldn't just be tougher marines but something completely different my take on necrons is in two types of units, ones that have meq level defense with high attack power and ones with super defense with utility roles rather than jack of all trades (which currently limits the number of units GW can make for necrons).
even with the four units i've posted so far, necron warriors have had a survivability drop (ok i got that wrong in my original post), combat ability drop, damage potential against vehicles has been increased (can penetrate armour 11) if i droped them to 18 points or possibly 16 points i doubt they would be a bad unit.
i'd like some feedback on some of the other units (immortals, pariahs, monolith) that i've posted so far, tomorrow i'll be writing up my version of flayed ones!
thanks for the criticism so far and i hope my eldar take on necrons gives you something to think about (even if it's about how wrong i am)
Immortals:At first glance the Immortals seem ok, but at a second glance I don't think that Rending and an extra +3 for armor pen rolls is enough for the terrible stats it has, the strength, range and AP of the gun, I just could not see myself sing this unit.
Pariahs: These guys look pretty intense but I have one problem, since the flamer has no strength the 2D6+3 armor pen roll is terrible. Take for instance you're trying to flame a Predator from the front, you now need to roll a 10 on 2D6 in order to glance it and an 11+ in order to pen, I just don't see this happening all that much. I'm going to assume this was an oversight but definately needs to be changed.
Monolith: Ok, I need to take this in sections. Section the first, the "Repair" rule needs a name change because that's not repairing anything that's pretty much shouting "Boo" to distract the shooter. Second, Living Metal isn't a weapon that can be blown off, especially TWICE, it's what the Monolith is made out of. This would be like getting a weapon destroyed on a Land Raider and being able to blow the hull off of it, it doesn't make sense. Third, I really can't criticise the Summoned Drones ability since I don't know the stats or rules behind them so I'll leave them alone. Fourth, the Teleport ability seems kind of cool but I would never see myself using it on an enemy unit, I would just try to Gauss Arc them or Particle Whip them, which brings me to: Particle Whip. Really dude, really. One of our best troop/vehicle killing guns just got nerfed for the abilities I just said were a major let down? I'm sorry, but nerfing a gun requires the other abilities to make up for it and they don't. Also, what happened to the Gauss Arc I mentioned before. was it removed for one of the abilites or did you just forget to add it in?
I honestly don't mean to come off like a jerk, but these are terrible "improvements" to an army that is still pretty good and only really need the minor tweeks that Ravendove mentioned earlier.
World Eaters: W-47 D-10 L-9
Necrons: W-19 D-3 L-2
Protectorate of Menoth: W-36 D-0 L-7
Honestly Necrons are a stable army in need of a power boost to keep up with the times though some things I'd like to see in the upcoming codex are as followed:
WWBB: is affected by AP1 and 2, keeping it in line with Feel No Pain it's closely related cousin
All units in the necron codex gaining some kind of "Cold Circuitry" rule that allows them to roll 3d6 for morale tests and picking the 2 lowest dice, seems fluffy and something unique in 40k, if not that perhaps something like stubborn or like the inquisitor lord's "Iron Will" ability.
Necron lord gaining some special rule boost would be nice too, "Iron Will" or some rule that boosts the army as a whole
All units with the Necron rule gaining the "relentless" rule and maybe the "slow and purposeful" to balance it though this could have disastrous effect on things like flayed ones and make Warriors almost on par with Immortals so maybe some special tweek to it would be needed.
Guass Weaponry and Distruption field weapons gain or swap their rules for rending, and possibly making it roll d6 instead of d3 when you roll a 6.
Necrons gaining some kind of special teleporting ability, as with their fluff they just pop out of no where so maybe add the option to deepstrike units like warriors and immortals without the aid of a monolith.
Monolith gains a small point increase and have its Power matrix gain another ability that allows it teleport around while on the board just as if it came in and deepstriked that turn.
Maybe some kind of mini tomb spyders not really meant for combat but help with WWBB and make use of the spyders ability to get Necrons up when there isn't a similar unit nearby.
These are just some of the things I'd like to see, dunno about everyone elses thoughts.
Last edited by Duo_Sonata; March 24th, 2010 at 17:08.
Warhammer 40k: Blood Angels, Imperial Guard, Grey Knights, Space Lizards (wolves), Kroot, Witch Hunters, Dark Eldar
Warhammer: Lizardmen, Empire, Vampire Counts, Brettonians, High Elves, Skaven
I'm curious where you think Necrons need to be weaker at killing things. Necron warriors are already lacking in offensive power as is without dropping their attack ability through the floor like that. Also, something you should look into, is that 40K weaponry is often based around the fluff of the weapon. Necrons use, essentially, disintegration rifles. I dunno about you but I don't put laser-gun and disintegration-gun on the same level.
I see what you're saying with them having a marine-similar stat-line. Consider this though. Necrons are, unlike all the mortal races, unrestrained by such things as bones and muscles. The difference in force machinery is able to exert compared to flesh and blood organisms of the same size and function is pretty insane. S4 makes sense at the very least. Also, if you were an evil mastermind creating armies of mechanical soldiers to defeat your enemies, would you give them sub par targeting optics and close combat programming? I sure hope not. We're bad enough in close combat without everyone hitting us on a 3+!
Also, I would NEVER take +1 T and a 6+ invuln in place of WBB, that's not even marginally worth it.
I suppose I'm being a tad harsh here, and I can't say that I hold it against you for trying something like this out. However I think you should study up on Necrons a bit. I suggest the Terminator films, the T800 is essentially a Necron Warrior minus WBB and it's gauss rifle.