Cavalry "Simple fix"

[Rising Leviathan]

Hey,

I got thinking the other day, that I, as a High Elf player, never ever use regular cavalry anymore, except occasionally some fast cavalry. I seldom see armies using cavalry these days, as everything is about large blocks of infantry, and because cavalry lost their effectiveness in 8th edition. Many people will still argue that cavalry is still worth it, and that they were too effective in 7th edition.

A "simple" fix, in my opinion, would be to let the attacks of cavalry models work as impact hits in any turn in which they charge. My fluff reasoning would be, that to hit something in a block of warriors while charging at them should be near guaranteed, and my game mechanic reasoning that cavalry often are taken in small numbers, need all the hits they can get, as now they often aren't more than fast units with a high Armour Save.

This would also take care of the ridiculous (and this is coming from a HE player) cases where ASF strikes before charging knights with 15ft lances.

A problem I see is that not all cavarly units really need this buff (in my opinion), like Blood Knights or marked Chaos Knights who still do quite well with high number of attacks and nearly unkillable. They might not need such a buff, but then, we will always have some units that are better than others.

So, what do you say? Yay? Nay?

Regards,

[Commisarlestat]

The rule would have to be linked to lances. I'd prefer asf on lances in the first round if they charge. It fits your reasoning and means that you don't need to make excepts (chaos generally are taken with ensorcelled weapons)

The other problem with cavalry in 7th was their garunteed charge if facing infantry I think that it actually works ok in tge new rules but is still a little to variable. Always remember that if a rule affects cav armies in a good way how would brets change. The bret problem is dealing with stubborn units as they can't break them on the charge.

Perhaps then it isn't so much that cavalry need better rules it is that they aren't being used correctly. 5-6 cavalry shudnt be able to break a unit on the charge that is say 40 models strong. Now this becomes a possibility if you take two ranks of 5 knights and give them impact hits.

I think that the issue may be with each individual unit of cavalry rather than a catch all fix. I'd say try it out in a game or two. Then play against or with a bret full cav list and see what happens.
Impact hits on first turn may then seem a little overpowered.

Hope that helps

a

[CaptainSarathai]

So wait- Knight attacks go before even ASF? That's not much a fix really. Sure, they get all of their attacks, but that's not going to win combat -the problem with cavalry is their lack of ranks, and the enemy having Steadfast. You'd still be better off grabbing infantry and just weathering the storm IMO.
I know what you mean though, honestly, I have about 30 or more Silver Helms sitting on my shelves collecting dust just because I can't come up with a valid reason to take them. Even in my discussion with Castiell in the armylist section, I compared them to Elite Infantry and you really are just better off taking the infantry in a High Elf list.
Cavalry doesn't serve the same purpose anymore, and GW needs to keep this in mind when writing new books, therefore giving us a discount on cavalry. Maneuverability isn't a big deal in Fantasy- the units are HUGE and there aren't many of them, and with everyone getting to attack with 2 ranks and at initiative regardless of the charge, most tactical moving has been reduced to "jostling" to keep a unit's flanks guarded while presenting it's frontage to as many foes as possible. I've watched Spearmen sit across from each practically flipping a coin to see who the poor sod who charged in would be, because +1CR for charging isn't worth losing your Spears anymore when you're swinging at Ini and facing the full number of attacks in return.

I think the fix would therefore be to go through each of the books and determine what sort of discount a unit should receive. For HE to start- DPs can stay as-is, or maybe come down by 2pts at most. Silvers should definitely be sub-20pts, maybe 20 on the nose with a shield. Reavers go down to about 16-18pts a model. Ridiculously cheap, for HIDEOUSLY USELESS fast cavalry.

[Castiell]

Aside from certain changes I'd like to see (GW option for DPs, Silverhelms as core and with horse armor optional and shields for granted, a shooty HE unit that isn't complete garbage), I don't think the issue should be solved race specific (that'd just be a balance shitstorm). I'd think a general fix across the board (like they did for monsters) is in order.
How about this for non-monstrous cavalry - Instead of a second, essentially useless (since you can't target the horse) statline, cavalry counts as a single model, and horses count as 'equipment' that conveys +1S +1W +1/2 As. After all, even after the initial lance charge a horsemen is still at an advantage in close combat, and it's quite likely the horse would suffer one or two hits aimed at the rider. By no means a perfect solution, but it'd give cavalry additional hitting and staying power at the very least.

[Commisarlestat]

I completely agree captsarathai. I have always seen the problem as a difficulty with stubborn even in last edition. The problem is if you ignore stubborn cavalry especially brets become overpowered. Some sort of mod to stubborn or steadfast would be interesting. I'm just waiting to see what happens with the bret book as it is a mainly cavalry army.

A

[Intrepid]

The problem I've seen with cavalry is more their vulnerability to shooting than their ability to kill targets. By the time I bring a block of cavalry big enough to do something, every enemy war machine zeroes in on them for easy kills...and war machines are very popular in this edition. Big difference between losing 5 Elves and 5 Cold One Knights. Maybe a 5+ ward save for ranked cavalry against war machines only, or simply a negation of penetrating ranks? Something to make our 30-point models a little more durable than our 8-point models....

[Commisarlestat]

The thing with the shooting is that they should be vulnerable to it to a certain extent. If an opponent decides to shoot a cannon at my knights then that's cool he's gonna kill 1 guy in most units whereas if he spends his time going for the infantry he can get in more shots that kill more men.

As for the wardsave I'd say definately not. It's a bret special rule and tbh one of only a couple of things that keep their standard cav different from others.

A

[Intrepid]

Sure, they need to be vulnerable to shooting, but right now shooting has become so dangerous that nobody fields cavalry in more than one rank of 5-6. No new rule or fix can make such a small unit able to touch a horde-block, so what cavalry really need is incentive to take larger-size units. And the reason players don't do that is because cavalry make such good targets for enemy shooting. I've tried larger formations, typically 10-12 Cold One Knights, only to have them get completely nuked before their second turn in almost every game. I can't hide a unit that big and their high armor means nothing to cannonballs and such. They don't need a save against all shooting, mind you, only the kind of shooting than can reliably kill half a dozen of them at a time (if they're fielded in multiple ranks). Six grunts don't matter. Six cavalry do. Hence my suggestion.