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Orky Weapons

2K views 19 replies 9 participants last post by  Sandhawk03 
#1 ·
I believe an Ork choppa should instead of automaticallly making the best save possible a 4+ (doesn't make much sense) to a -1 armour save modifier.

It doesn't make much sense to me that a choppa carves up terminator armour but does nothing against the clothy armour of guardsmen. A -1 armour save would be more balanced and not scream "JUST MADE FOR MARINES".
OLD CHOPPA: (2pts, Max Armour save of 4+, one-handed.)
NEW CHOPPA: 2pts, (-1 Armoure Modifier, one-handed.)

A 'Uge Choppa which is widely known for sucking, should be something like this.
OLD 'UGE CHOPPA: (10pts, +2s, Max Save of 4+, Always strike last, two handed.)
NEW 'UGE CHOPPA: (10pts,+1s, -2 Armour Modifier, does NOT have to strike last, two-handed.)

Another thing I though was really dumb from playing W40k (this is universal to all races with power claws/fists.) is that no matter how big or strong you are, you always strike last. Anyone seen the picture of the mountain sized Ghazghkull Mag Uruk Thraka? Yeah, well the power claw he wields is just as hard for him to move as say Commisar Yarrik using a claw of nearly the same size.

Normally I would suggest a flat out initiative modifier, but since it doesn't have as much to do with I as it does with the strength required to wield a power fist. I think a system like this would be interesting (yet a little complicated compared to the simplicity GW tries to maintain.)
The equation is: 6 minus Strength equals negative initiative modifier with a minimum of 1. For example.

a - b = c (-1)

A S3 Imperial Guardsman leader with a power fist is (6 - 3 = 3 x -1) meaning that the guardsman strike at the minimum of initiative 1. This makes sense as I can picture me or any other puny human (compared to the astounding sizes of alien races in W40k) wearing a 2 ton glove and trying to move it yet alone wield it correctly.

Lets use an enormous warboss on the other hand. He is S5, and judging by the size of him, a power claw would not affect him nearly as much as that guardsman. Another sad thing about Orks is that for our warboss we have to waste his amazing initiative on a power claw, or use a choppa and not kill anything but still striking first. For a warboss it would be (6 - 5 = 1 x -1) meaning the warboss gets 1I shaved off of his total, effectively making him slightly hampered, but not as much as he is now.

Any Questions, comments or whatever on what I have here is appreciated.
 
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#2 ·
That about powerfists seems nice. But then you get problems like:
10 bloodclaws with 2 powerfists (164 points) on the charge: 32 WS3 S4 attacks + 8 WS3 S8 attacks which strike with only a -2 I modifier on an SM initiative.


Tai'shar
 
#3 ·
How about randomize initiative? We all know that there are gross exagerations in the representation of all GW minis in the WH/40k ranges. Catachans are bigger than Space marines. Most swords are bigger than the model wielding it, etc... Leave powerfists at I 1 but have each unit in the combat roll a d6 and add their intitiative. It is possible that the powerfist is going last, but it is also possible that it is going before something else. This could change the way that things end up quite a bit. Basing initiative on base S of the model is not a good fix IMO. Models that don't need any more help (i.e. marine characters) get a huge boon while those that could use a boost (guard officers) get nothing. For that to be balanced, there would have to be a cost modifier as well and a powerfist price listing in the armoury would look something like (S*3)*resultant I. Basically 9 pts for a guard officer, 24 for a marine Sgt. and 36 for a marine IC. Overly complicated and still probably not an accurate balance.

As to the original topic of ork weapons, the 'uge Choppa is the dumbest weapon in the game. Why would I spend points on a weapon that doesn't allow for a second CCW, strikes last and only add 2 to str. Given that the orks usually strike last anyway this wouldn't be that big a deal, but basic orks aren't the ones that would potentially be taking this anyway. Factor in the Waagh! bonus on the charge and you are better off giving the nob a powerclaw that while it is more points, fully doubles his S and allows no armour save. Bottom line is that the 'uge choppa should strike in I order. Against any army but marines the save "modifier" is of no benefit and really only comes into its own against Termies who are the only things that orks strike before.

Which brings up another disconnect in the rules. Terminator armour is supposedly the ultimate in augmetic armour and stabilization, so much so that the wearer can move and fire heavy weapons, but it provides 1) no strength bonus and 2) no allowance for their power fists or thunderhammers to strike other than last. The fluff states that they are intended for close quarters combat. I would think that being able to move to defend yourself and strike back would be paramount to close quarters survival. I think a few things should be done to make termies worth fielding and make terminator armour worth taking as real protection for an IC. Terminator Armour confers the following: +1 T (as an attack must pass through the armour in order to wound the wearer and thus will absorb some of the force of the attack, the adjusted T is used when determining if an attack causes Instant Death. [took this bit from the battlesuit descriptions in the Tau Codex and it makes sense here as well.]); +1 S if using a weapon other than a powerfist or thunderhammer; such is the strength and stability augmentation of tactical dreatnought armour that the wearer strikes in inititive order regardless of the weapon used. Basically marines in termie amrour are T5 (including when determining insta-kill: s10 to insta-kill), power weapons and lightning claws attack at +1 S and powerfists and thunderhammers strike in I order. All this should carry over to Chaos termie armour and the T and I things should carry over to ork Mega armour. Ork mega armour already has too many drawbacks and not enough advantages to justify the current cost. Termie costs would probably have to increase a bit for balance purposes, but it would be well worth it.
 
#5 ·
I don't like the idea of 10-15 s8 powerfist attacks going right at my Carnifex's head.... It may make sence fluff-wise to do that, but then the termies would need a large points hike. Also, they're hard enough for some armies to kill now, without the extra toughness. But the Ork thing does make sense. Why use a powerfist wannabe when you can get the real thing?
 
#6 ·
I've actually found myself using the 'Uge Choppa occasionally, although never on a nob or an independent character. Instead, I stick one on my slaver and other low strength critters. It's cheaper (under half the cost in fact) and the increase in strength is basically the same as I'd get with a powerklaw. Stick a tankbusta bomm on him and he's set. Also, sticking a bionic arm gives you the additional close combat weapon that you'd need for the extra attack, I beleive. We talked about that on a previous thread on here, and that was the consensus we reached.
On a different note, I've never exactly understood why a powerklaw is the same thing as a powerfist. A powerfist gets it's additional power from, well, the power field that surrounds it, just like a powerweapon. A powerklaw, on the other hand, doesn't have that amazing energy field. It's just a honking huge hydrolic-powered crushing device. I've always thought that it should give you x2 strength, have the choppa rules as well as rending, and let you strike at initive. Or possibly just rending. This goes to show that it's simply the brute strength of the ork using it and not some special 'tek-neo-logeekal' doo-dad.
 
#7 ·
Well it is "some special 'tek-neo-logeekal' doo-dad" it just so happens that it's lo-tek. Unless mounted on mega armour, it should remain I 1 IMHO because it is a HUGE chunk of metal. As it's already doubling his strength, rending is a bit much. Rolling a 6 in the pen die will glance or pen anything in the game as it is! I couldn't fathom spending any points on a slaver other than his basic cost. He's just there to keep the little gits from running away and he only does a marginal job of that. For the price of the kit you're putting on him you could give another mob a nob which is going to be more effective.

I agree that making adjustments to the terminator rules would require a points adjustment. Probably on the order of 50-55 points per termie and an increase to 30ish points for a IC (you still have to buy his weapons). But it would likely be worth the investment.

The termies coming after the Carnifex and striking at I brings out the problem of the static I in the game. Under the current rules the 'fex could theoretically wipe out all the termies in btb with him and they never get a chance to strike back(basically kills much more than his cost as marginal risk to himself). If the termies were going at straight I the 'fex would probably die without a chance to strike back. Who goes first in close combat is the only thing in the game that you cannot affect either through tactics (minus using cover which can be negated for a negligible number of points) or even luck. Adding at least a bit of luck to the equation would make certain things a bit less of a sure thing, still probable but not guaranteed. I really think that I +d6 should determine order in close combat. Defending cover bumps I to 10. Using frag grenades bumps attacker's I to 10. Plasma grenades negate the cover entirely reverting both units to their base I. The d6 determines it. Tie goes simultaneous. Powerfist/klaw goes @ I 1 unless on a terminator or mega armour. Adding a single dice roll could add so much drama and some genuine excitement. That one roll could have a huge influence on the outcome of the combat.
 
#8 ·
helotaxi said:
I couldn't fathom spending any points on a slaver other than his basic cost. He's just there to keep the little gits from running away and he only does a marginal job of that. For the price of the kit you're putting on him you could give another mob a nob which is going to be more effective.
*Chuckles* I started giving kit to my slavers when one of my friends got into the habit of coming at them with vehicles, hoping to break the unit without having to waste a pie-plate on them. I found that a Tankbusta bomm up the tailpipe occasionally is worth the occasional investment in points. Also, since I run two meat shields to screen my huntas and my madboyz, by giving weapons to my slavers its easier to tell them apart. One gets a 'uge choppa and has, of all things, a librarian under his belt, while the other marches forth with a big shoota, and has actually popped a wartrukk before.
Going back to the mega-armour/powerklaw bit, what's always struck me was the sheer SIZE of these behemoths waving these things around. A regular run of the meal boy is the size of the seven-foot-tall Tremble-Before-Our-Armour-Saves beakie, while nobz and warbosses are even bigger. Even if the klaw is huge and unweildy, something that strong should be able to bash things with it occasionally without being slowed down.
Granted, all of my arguements are based more off of fluff and the general 'feel' of the army then any real rules base, but I have never claimed otherwise. If we do go down the 'you need megaarmour to toss your powerklaw about quickly' route, I'd like to bring up the idea of giving them True Grit. This would help even out the very expensive cose in comparison between the termies and the mega-armour.
 
#10 ·
The dice roll thing sounds good, but it'd get insane if theres a bunch of different I people in combat. Imagine having to do that in a fight with Genestealers, Termies, A Tyrant, Normal marine boyz, a commander, and mayber some gaunts. 6 different squads all fighting at different initiatives- and I doubt something like that that is very uncommon( though it might be only 3 or 4 squads, with multiple combats it could be a pain). Besides, fists would still be too strong with that- maybe everyone should roll a d3. That way initiative would usually decide, with the lowman sometimes getting it, just like how it'd be in combat.
 
#11 ·
The d3 would be much, mauch better than a d6. Still, it seems that that would require point readjusting to keep it even. If my Sisters Repentia had a shot at not going last every time, why would anybody ever spend points on Arco-Flags? Or if my HSO could hit before your gaunts, all of a sudden your charge isn't very terrifying, making the gaunts worth less (or the Officer worth more, maybe). This would dramaticly shift the balance of power (particulaly using a d6) towards lower initiative troops.
 
#12 ·
It wouldn't shift anything. An I3 troop is still at a huge disadvantge compared to an I6. Most of the time there will be no difference compared to how it it is now. Occasionally, things will get mixed up a bit and get a bit more interesting. A d3 would really have almost no effect. An ork could still never hit before a marine. With a d6 it would not happen often but it would be possible.
 
#13 ·
If the initiative diff is only 1, though, then there's still a good chance of the lower ones going first with a d6. Tau beating up Guardsen before the guard get to strike, powerfists killing Necrons before they move- It wouldn't be that rare with a d6.
 
#14 ·
Phalanx said:
If the initiative diff is only 1, though, then there's still a good chance of the lower ones going first with a d6. Tau beating up Guardsen before the guard get to strike, powerfists killing Necrons before they move- It wouldn't be that rare with a d6.
Yeah, god forbid that Tau win close combat one time out of seven or that Necrons lose their awesome close combat ability. >_O

I think the d6 sounds sweet. It'd add a bit of luck to the rather pedestrian close-combat system without making initiative worthless. Seriously, why should orks have such a low initiative, anyways? They're not slow in close combat, not in the fluff anyways.
 
#15 ·
Sandhawk03 said:
Seriously, why should orks have such a low initiative, anyways? They're not slow in close combat, not in the fluff anyways.
Because if you pack enough of them together in a squad and you assault, you double that init. ;)
Might not be all that impressive on average, but still. They're orks. It's not like they'd complain.
 
#16 ·
With regards to the changes suggested to Choppas in the original post, it may not be 'realistic', but the point of the Choppa reducing saves was to help vs Heavy Armour such as Marines the weapon have an effect against lighter troops is not needed, indeed it becomes slightly unbalencing.
 
#17 ·
citybeatnik said:
Because if you pack enough of them together in a squad and you assault, you double that init. ;)
Might not be all that impressive on average, but still. They're orks. It's not like they'd complain.
I know that. But considering how adapted they are to close combat, you'd think they'd automatically go first on the charge and normally have an initiative of 3. Average, like a guardsman, at least. I mean, why are the semi-trained long-range soldiers of the imperial guard just as fast in close combat as orks, who were bio-engineered to fight? And why are orks only as fast in close combat as the Tau?

...

It strikes me, the three armies I have and/or am working on are Tau, Orks, and fantasy Dwarves. I have this love affair with Initiative 2 armies.
 
#19 ·
Sandhawk03 said:
I know that. But considering how adapted they are to close combat, you'd think they'd automatically go first on the charge and normally have an initiative of 3. Average, like a guardsman, at least. I mean, why are the semi-trained long-range soldiers of the imperial guard just as fast in close combat as orks, who were bio-engineered to fight? And why are orks only as fast in close combat as the Tau?
I'm in agreement with you there, at least. I suppose the arguement is that with their higher WS, the orks tend to be harder to hit in a tussle and thus don't NEED to go as fast.
I don't really think that that's a good arguement myself, but, eh, what can you do? It's like the fluff stating that a normal ork can tug a normal human being apart. The only time you get that is if you play Goffs, and your basic troop choices are Skarboyz.
Or you play Snakebites, and get the lovely, lovely little Madboyz and their delightful pigdok. :D
 
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