Codex: Necromancers- Discussion

[Unseen Lurker]

Hi all. Sorry I've been gone for the least three days, but my computer's been in the shop- the damn thing was riddled with spyware. If we have to cut some units, I'd rather we cut the Harrowed (I just can't stand the image of Necro players being driven out of gaming clubs ahead of a mob armed with torches and pitchforks that keeps going through my head when I look at them). The Harvesters are unique, and the Harrowed, well, aren't. We could also maybe get rid of either the Cauldron Born (too much like older Thousand Sons), the Herald of Death (no-one seems interested in him, and the rules are too complex) or both of them. If we do turn Execution-Kin (never realised they'd be so popular!) into a seperate unit, what sort of stats do we give 'em? Just a base stat and choose the execution method?

[SPACMARINE]

Hmm... I always liked the idea of Harrowed, it would really cool say playing against an eldar player and seeing a unit of his own men turned against him! But if they must be cut...anyway i suggest the herald of death, their rules are too complex and the fluff is a little strange, why would they be better off dead? If the executioner kin are to be included I think they would be a good replacement for the wights, a good base statline to me would look something like this:
Executioner-Kin
WS: 3
BS: 3
S: 5
T: 5
W: 1 (maybe 2?)
I: 4
A: 2
LD: 10
SV: 3+/5+
Options: One member of the unit may be upraded to an Exectioner Champion at +15 points, they gain one extra attack and wound.
[insert essential unit upgrades here]
Special Rules: Feel no pain (maybe infiltrate or deep strike?)
Powerful Undead: These creatures are very powerful and the pride and joy of may Necromancers, as such they like to keep them close. A unit of executioner kin may form a retinue for a Necromagus.

That's all i've got to say right now so yeah...what do you think.

[Unseen Lurker]

We may as well get rid of both Harrowed and the Herald of Death, that way we only have 4 Elites when we stat up the Execution-Kin. I still want to keep the Wights, they're pretty much the Veterans for this army. Especially with those Specialist Member upgrades you came up with, the Wights look to me like they could be a very tactical unit.

Speaking of which, you may want to rethink those WS/BS scores (these are Elites after all) unless you want me to have it that certain upgrades increase them (the Barrage for BS springs to mind). I don't really think they need Infiltrate, and the Burrowers already get to Deep Strike. Feel No Pain... I suppose so, but with a 3+/5+* save don't you think it runs the risk of being overpowered?

Having finally been able to play The Suffering, I was thinking of adding this Special Rule to the Decapitation upgrade:
Skillful Sever: Decapitators are extremely graceful and agile creatures, armed with razor-sharp blades attached to (or in place of) their limbs. Combined with their twisted intellect, Decapitators are masters at dealing deadly blows that extinguish an enemy's life with a single fatal stroke; a whirling backhand that slices through the neck, a disemboweling backflip or the simple arboreal impale. Any To Wound roll of a 6 in Close Combat wounds automatically.

:DIT::
By the way, considering how powerful/independant Execution-Kin are, you definately should give them the Strong-Willed Special Rule (from Wights and Cauldron-Born). You know, we could just make Execution-Kin a 0-1/0-2 Troops choice, that's relatively understocked...

[Scuba T]

so,should we start stattingthe excution-kin now? And I think we shoul keep them as elits, because you don't have a bunch of guys burnt at the stake and then reanimated as a basic troop choice. And the whole theme of them makes thm sound relatively powerful, and if we made the troop choices, we'd have to power them down a bit.

[Phalanx]

Hmm... I always liked the idea of Harrowed, it would really cool say playing against an eldar player and seeing a unit of his own men turned against him! But if they must be cut...anyway i suggest the herald of death, their rules are too complex and the fluff is a little strange, why would they be better off dead? If the executioner kin are to be included I think they would be a good replacement for the wights, a good base statline to me would look something like this:
Executioner-Kin
WS: 3
BS: 3
S: 5
T: 5
W: 1 (maybe 2?)
I: 4
A: 2
LD: 10
SV: 3+/5+
Options: One member of the unit may be upraded to an Exectioner Champion at +15 points, they gain one extra attack and wound.
[insert essential unit upgrades here]
Special Rules: Feel no pain (maybe infiltrate or deep strike?)
Powerful Undead: These creatures are very powerful and the pride and joy of may Necromancers, as such they like to keep them close. A unit of executioner kin may form a retinue for a Necromagus.

That's all i've got to say right now so yeah...what do you think.

I agree with that stat-line, but I'd say instead of a 3+/5+*, maybe just give them a 4+ inv save or a 4+ save and Feel No Pain. I'm against the extra wound for such a small amount of points. I'd say keep the same amount of points, but it should only add to the attacks. I like the current stat-line otherwise- Because of their deaths I wouldn't think that they would have great WS or BS. Strong-willed isn't really needed as these are neither heroic and they are pretty dead. Their eliteness would be because of their rarity and abilities, not for any heroicness or veterness. These aren't SM, though they would be quite powerful because of the rituals....

As for the decap thing, maybe instead of auto-wounding on a six to wound, maybe we could use the fantasy killing blow ability- On a 6 to wound, the enemy instantly dies regardless of their number of wounds and without an armor save, though they would still have inv saves. This would represent cutting off someone's head.

As for the pointage, I'd say 35pts base before the execution upgrades. After the powers are finalized, we should work out the points for each.

[Unseen Lurker]

In case you've forgotten, Strong-Willed means that Wights/Cauldron-Born don't have to pass a Ld test or lose wounds if the Commander dies and that they can move normally if they can't draw LoS to the Commander.

I think the only thing we need to alter to the statline Spacmarine gave us to to add +1 WS/BS (that way, the Decap upgrade takes 'em to WS5, which is appropriate for something that the fluff says is so skilled at hack-n-slash), maybe make them 2 Wounds each (having played the game, I'll tell you that these suckers don't bite it easily) and give them just a 5+ Inv save and no FNP. In which case, the Electrocute's Electric Aura gives them a 4+ Inv save against Shooting Attacks.

I like your version of the Skillful Sever rule better Phalanx.

Pointage raises a point, but at 35 points per model already, and the fact you "have" to buy an execution method, why make them cost anything at all?

[Scuba T]

Because some of these execution methods are really powerful. The ability to instant kill is never cheap.

Also, don't drop wights for these guys. Wights are a cool idea, because they're fluff is different than harrowed, which are just a stronger zombie of a paticular race. The wights are just different, and every army needs something like that.

By the way, after we post the execution-kin, should we maybe try sending this to White Dwarf again. Maybe even Chapter Approved, though we'd have to mail it, and the price would kind of be nasty in a 50+ page codex. These guys actually want fan input, and a fandex of this size would attract some attention.

Here's the mailing address:

Games Development
(Chapter Approved)
Games Workshop
Willow Road, Lenton
Nottingham
NG7 2WS, UK

[Phalanx]

WD wouldn't accept it, but CA might.

As for the Ex-Kin, WS4 wouldn't be too bad, but I believe they deserve BS3 as they are made out of cultists and stuff, not the same things as wights. The W stat is good as is, though. Extra wounds come pretty expensive, especially for something this strong.... We'd be looking at around 45 pts each without the exection abilites. But then again, the ex-kin abilities will probably be between 5 and 20 pts per model. We just have to remember that these d00ds are undead, not ubermarines with their uber armor and training. Thats the main reason why I dislike such powerful armor on them. Here's the current pointage per model as is. Here's the new points for each upgrade- they may have to be changed depending on any stat changes, but this is what I've got from the stuff on page 1.

Decap: 30 pts for +1 s,ws, a, power weapons, and killing blow. (on a 6 to wound, the attack ignore armor saves and instantly kills the enemy model. Does not affect Monsterous Creatures or models with base toughness 5 or higher.)

Lethal Injection: 15 pts for +1 I. Always wounds on a 4+ in cc. Shooting attack: rng 6", s: As toughness Ap: 6 Assault 2

Fire: + 20 pts for Power Weapons, Always counts as in cover (5+ cover save in open terrain, when they are charged they strike first), move through terrain

Electrocution: +25 pts for Any model wounded by them in CC strikes at initiative 1 next combat unless they make a toughness test. Shock Attack: Rng:12" S 5 Ap 4 Assault 1, auto-glances on a 6. Power weapons. 4+ inv save from shooting. (why do they have the save? It adds like 10 pts to them.... I could drop this to +15 or +20 pts without this....)

Firing Squad: + 14 pts Shooting attack- Rng 24", S6 Ap 4, Assault 2 and when they die, place a small blast template on the dead model. Any model on the template takes a S7 Ap 5 hit. Also gain +1 BS.

Buried Alive: + 17 pts for Rending, Deep Strike, Move as if equiped with a jumpack, but count as normal infantry.

Sorry that the points ended up more than I thought they would be.

[Unseen Lurker]

I'm not following your prices for the Ex-modes, cause the abilities you have are different to the ones I remember giving them (Earthmeld is more like Fleet of Foot than Jump Pack).

I think maybe we shouldn't give Decaps the Skillful Sever rule, looks too powerful. Also, I agree with you; Ws 4, Bs 3 sounds good and balanced to me. Barrages can get +2 BS to make them as good at shooting as Decaps are at slicing.

Execution-Kin should probably just get a basic 5+ (6+?) Armour Save, because they don't really rely on armour but more toughness+agility.

From the feedback, the most likely course that presents itself to me is to get rid of Harrowed and the Herald of Death, that way we can dump the Unalive rule in the bargain (no point in a rule if there's nothing that uses it). No-one seems to want to use them anyway.

[Phalanx]

I clarified Killing Blow better so it would affect things like SM, but not things like a carnifex, just like in fantasy. Its really not that powerful an ability- its a lot easier to roll a 6 to hit than to wound. Its a bit worse then rending except againt things like Oblitorators or HQs. I decided to make the BS change +1 because I think Bs5 should be reserved for Hqs only. As for the Buried alive ones, I had origionally written Fleet of Earth, but changed it when I looked back and that they always moved 6" for it, so it was pretty much the same as using a jump pack except you move in 2 moves instead of 1 and you don't ignore terrain with the first move. The effect is just about the same, though. If you want fleet instead, I will lower the cost down to 12 pts. And I like the 5+ armor save, though maybe make it invulnerable. We don't want them too strong, but they did die some pretty gruesome deaths, so they would be more pain-resistant than usual.

For modelling them, just remember that these d00ds would be quite large- I'm thinking at least GK termy size. They would use the nid warrior base. A small model wouldn't do their large stat-line justice. These things are as strong as Broodlords- make them look the part. Unfortunatly, I can't really think of a good way to model them...