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  1. #1
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    Dampening the Effect of the First Turn

    Generally, it's often complained that the roll for the first turn is too decisive. So how about this house rule:

    The player who does not get the first turn gets a free movement phase before the game starts, except for his scouts and infiltrators.


    This would basically make the decision to take the first turn after winning a roll a decision between getting the first move or the first shot, not both as it currently is.

    Perhaps that free movement phase should be limited to 6" moves to prevent fast assault armies benefitting a bit too much from it though.


    Fluffwise it could be justified with the one who gets the first turn being the attacker who invades a previously occupied region, in which the enemy already has taken up strategic positions.


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  3. #2
    Mr. Tau onlainari's Avatar
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    I disagree. If you find it is too decisive, then you are not following the rules and there is not 25% terrain on the board, or you aren't smart enough to hide your important units. All tanks can move 6" and shoot, the possibility of killing your tank that couldn't hide from everything (should be able to hide from something) is countered by getting the last turn to safely move into objectives without the risk of assault or fire. In omega, with random game length thus an unsure risk of assault or resturn fire, it doesn't matter so much because only infantry starts on the board anyway.
    Quote Originally Posted by rikimaru View Post
    You have the option for instance of infiltrating, outflanking, pillboxing, or anti assault.


    And that's just with the Kroot.

  4. #3
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    No matter how you turn it, getting to choose who gets the first turn is an advantage conferred to the winner of the roll by nothing but luck.

    How decisive it actually is may be argueable, that however has no bearing whatsoever on this roll conferring an unwarranted advantage to one player - and anything which dampens this should be welcome.

    PS: Take a look at any game involving fast tyranids. The question if one gets the first or the second turn decides between getting shot once or twice before the first wave assaults. That's quite important...
    Last edited by ArchonAstaroth; September 18th, 2005 at 22:45.

  5. #4
    Mr. Tau onlainari's Avatar
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    I'll agree that is a good point. The winner of the dice roll gets an advantage. I guess I just want a simple system. As it is, it makes you think about what to do if your opponent goes first. You have to plan for it. As mentioned before, hiding to keep your units alive. There is also more than 24" between the enemy and yourself. You may desperately want to kill some homogaunts in your first turn, but maybe moving backwards is the best idea.

    The current first turn creates the need for a lot of skill in deployment, but is very simple. Players let first turn be the decider of the game. It's players that stick their units out in the open hoping to get first turn that let it become a significant factor. You need to realise that while there are advanced systems that are more balanced than IGOUGO, IGOUGO is the simplest system and 40k is balanced around it.

    You need to realise that it's ok in the long run of deploying to minimise damage if you don't get first turn, even though this minimises the damage you do in your first turn. If you do this, and continue to play someone who makes first turn an important factor, you'll come out on top more often. Eventually they'll realise what they're doing, and will try to reduce the effect of first turn too.

    Thus, when good players play each other, first turn is of little importance. Just watch the top players next tourny you visit.
    Last edited by onlainari; September 19th, 2005 at 01:26.

  6. #5
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    I agree with onlainari on this one. First turn is balanced by last turn.

    By the end of the game my bloodaxes are usually not in the best shape (that's what I get for having pretty much a whole army that can die to a lasgun!) and in order for me to get that far I have to make use of cover and advance cautiously. Many times I have been able to leap out of cover at the end and take an objective which wins or draws a game without worrying about being shot or charged. It makes a big difference.

    I played a game a little while ago where (not for the first time) I was able to fire my Russ from behind cover all game, then in turn 6 turbo-boost it up the field and get the objective. This gave me 400 VPs I couldn't have got if I had had 1st turn. My opponents anti-tank units (who like most heavies were hanging around at the back of the battle out of sight) just had to stand there and watch.

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    Son of LO H0urg1ass's Avatar
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    Ok, I'm going to write out a little plan that I follow when I play my two different types of armies. This post is going to be a little bit long, but if you bare with me, then you'll understand how you can benefit both from going first or going second. The first strategy is how to determine first turn for an assault oriented army and the second strategy is for a stand and shoot army:

    I follow two pre game rules when playing an Assault Oriented army list:

    1) I always set up as if I'm going to get the second turn.

    2) In the event that I get to decide who goes first, I always choose to go last.

    Ok, I know this may sound a little bit weird, but here's my rational:

    On any mission involving table quarters it is always, and I means always, best to have the last turn. Why? When you move your land speeders 24" in the last turn from their hidden cover and contest three table quarters, then they have nothing left that they can do against it. It's your last turn and if you hold one table quarter (your own) and you can contest the other three, then it doesn't matter who killed more points in the game.

    I have literally won games where the opponent killed everything in my army exept for a six man tactical squad hiding in my own quarter and my three land speeders that I kept hidden the whole game until the last turn, which is when I moved them into my opponents quarters. In fact, I chose to go last and let him have the first turn which made him feel like he was going to win from the first turn of the game.

    Ok, but what about games where you aren't trying to hold table quarters, but instead you are just trying to vaporize your opponent? I still set up out of sight of my enemy and choose to take second turn. Why? I give him a whole turn where he has either little to shoot at, or nothing to shoot at. Then on my turn I move my tanks out from behind terrain and move my troops into sight and start blazing away or moving forward as fast as I can.

    Here's how I play stand and shoot armies:

    1) I always set up as if I'm going to get second turn.

    2) In the event that I get to decide who goes first, I always choose the first turn.

    Now this may seem a little more clear cut than what I do above. When you have a large "stand and shoot" army such as Imperial Guard, then you don't have the luxury of hiding a lot of troops and then moving them out on your turn. Instead you will end up deploying you troops where they will be until endgame, if everything goes well.

    This means that you need to keep units that can move and shoot (i.e. Units without heavy weapons or tanks) out of sight until it is your turn. This will allow you to maximize your shooting capabilities by firing all of your heavy weapons on your turn. It will also ensure that your tanks don't die before they have a chance to do anything. If the tanks are hidden the first turn, then they will have a harder time hitting their intended target, but they will at least get to shoot, which is better than being dead and not getting to shoot at all.

    First turn is so important to a stand and shoot army that I always take every option that I can to increase my chances of getting the first turn such as trying to con my opponents into playing missions where first turn isn't random or using Creed and Kell in my IG army to ensure that I will go first.

    What about table quarter missions, don't I still want last turn? Yes and no. If you choose your targets wisely and you have a good mix of units, then you can reduce his units to below 50% strength and damage or destroy their vehicles to the point where they can't score a quarter anymore. This is made all the easier by the new rules which state that transport vehicles cannot hold table quarters.

    Here's my last tip for playing stand and shoot armies against opponents in a table quarters mission: Do NOT shoot to destroy, shoot to maim. What I mean by this is that I always pick a target and I shoot at it until it is at 49% strength or lower and then I schoose another target. If I do this right (which I usually do ), then by the end of the game my oppponent will not have any more scoring units left and the ones that he does have left will be hiding from me in order to secure whatever they can.

    Anyhow, this is how I look at going first and I hope you can see my strategies here. They really work well and when I used this strategy in my last gaming league I had the highest win/loss ratio in the store.... and that was with an Imperial Guard army. :huh:

  8. #7
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    The current first turn creates the need for a lot of skill in deployment, but is very simple. Players let first turn be the decider of the game. It's players that stick their units out in the open hoping to get first turn that let it become a significant factor.
    No matter how good one deploys, that can never completely balance out the disadvantage of getting the second turn - unless the enemy cannot see one at all.


    You need to realise that while there are advanced systems that are more balanced than IGOUGO, IGOUGO is the simplest system and 40k is balanced around it.
    It is a simple system, but balanced it could be better. I#ve seen too many games in which players lost a third of their army in turn one, even though they already made the best out of the available terrain. Keep in mind, things like barrage weapons care little for terrain, except that you get a cover save. Also, hiding behind terrain slows one down even further, so it's an compensation for losing the roll which does not come for free.



    I do realize that in some cases it can be an advantage to go second - usually if one can hide things to move out of cover to grab an objective. If one doesn't or cannot do this, then the supposed advantage of moving to an objective without being shot at becomes a non-issue - the opponent had six turns of shooting at the unit then, it matters little if he gets the last of them when it's already at the objective or before it moves there.
    Well, and in case that one can hide the things and then spring out of cover, that's just another inadaequacy of the system, another advantage which one gets by being able to choose to go first or second which shouldn't really be there, and which perhaps should be fixed in another way.

    The game is rather well balanced, but far from perfect.
    Last edited by ArchonAstaroth; September 19th, 2005 at 14:16.

  9. #8
    Son of LO Silver Wings's Avatar
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    I find first turn generally unbalancing especialy against Tyranids, as ArchonAstaroth said double the shooting before being assaulted makes a big differance. (You get to kill twice as much!).

    Do any of you try playing with escalation? though I would see it as a disadvantage to shooty players to have only some of thier shooting on from turn 1.
    Every time you read this sig: a fairie dies!

  10. #9
    Mr. Tau onlainari's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ArchonAstaroth
    No matter how good one deploys, that can never completely balance out the disadvantage of getting the second turn - unless the enemy cannot see one at all.
    That's rediculous! There's no way one can balance out someone having rotten luck for 6 turns either! >_< I hope you understand why I think it's rediculous.

    You need to get yourself to a tournament mate, and watch the big boys. Noone would lose 1/3 of their army even if their opponent roll 100% 6's. Going first is unbalanced until you learn to fight it. I'm telling you how, it makes you a better player.

    As for escalation, about 1/3 of my games are escalation. It's different, if it screws you then that's a problem with your list. I only start with pathfinders and 2 units of kroot, but you just learn what to do (hide!).
    Last edited by onlainari; September 19th, 2005 at 14:53.
    Quote Originally Posted by rikimaru View Post
    You have the option for instance of infiltrating, outflanking, pillboxing, or anti assault.


    And that's just with the Kroot.

  11. #10
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    That's rediculous! There's no way one can balance out someone having rotten luck for 6 turns either! >_< I hope you understand why I think it's rediculous.
    You need to get yourself to a tournament mate, and watch the big boys. Noone would lose 1/3 of their army even if their opponent roll 100% 6's. Going first is unbalanced until you learn to fight it. I'm telling you how, it makes you a better player.
    Get off your high horse.
    That's BS, and more of an ad hominem than anything else.

    Try playing e.g. versus IG with three basilisks without escalation with an army that is low in numbers due to quality troops.
    Against a shooty marine army with more than one whirlwind when you're not in power armour yourself. There are lots of cases in which one can lose a ton of points in the first turn without being able to do anything about it, pretty much regardless of terrain or deployment.


    While i have not taken part in a GT myself one of my regular opponents at my store went second in the local GT, and so far my win record against him is exactly balanced. Don't tell me i wouldn't know how the game works.

    Edit: grammar
    Last edited by ArchonAstaroth; September 19th, 2005 at 15:13.

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