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Hey, i have been thinking about the usefulness of rending claws on monstrous creatures. As most people know in almost all cases, rending claws hinder a TMC in close combat. It makes no sense to me (fluff or game play) that if i roll a 6 to hit, a multi wound characters life may of been saved thanks to a successful rending claw roll on my part. Also this rule clears up any questions about how many dice are to be rolled for armour penetration (or rather how many dice are NOT rolled).
My proposed solution, TMCs use the monstrous rending claws rule (detailed below), in place of standard rules (when they have rending claws equipped of course).
Monstrous rending claws work exactly like rending claws (as detailed on page 46 of rules book) with the following exceptions. TMC always roll 2D6 for armour penetration, in addition glancing hits are always counted as penetrating. If the creatures strength is at least twice that of the enemys toughness, the enemy suffers instant death (just like a normal wound).
This allows carnifexs and hive tyrants to benefit from rending claws and gives another option for a CC load out. With the slight buff, i think the price should be maybe 6-8 points for rending claws? (remember takes a VITAL weapons slot of a TMC)
EDIT: Spelt 'monstrous' wrong.
Last edited by Zlatko; May 16th, 2006 at 14:57.
errrr okay i dnt think i quiet get your first paragraph but rendering claws on a TMC could proove fatal to any vehicle as (in my understaning of the rules) if a TMC roles a 6 it attack a vehicle then it has 3D6+S armour penetration against vehiclesgiving a max of 28 (carnifex rolling three 6's
voiddragon, the basic problem with TMC rendering claws is the common debate that if a creature has RC, they cannot roll the extra d6 for being a TMC. This is due to the MC rules stating that they only get 1 die for cases where their weapon is special or has special rules. This debate has raged quite fully a number of times.
Zlatko, your rule looks quite interesting, but just for my own edification I decided to take a look at the math when it comes to Vehicles. Please correct me if I am wrong.
Lets assume the following for the first round of math:
-Carnifex with str 9.
-Hive Tyrant with str 5.
Standard MC Hit:
Vs AV 10:
Fex: 10 - 9 = 1
Probability of 1+ on 2d6 = 100%
100% chance of Penetrating Hit
Tyrant: 10 - 5 = 5
Probability of 5+ on 2d6 = 83%
72% chance of Penetrating Hit
11% chance of Glancing Hit
Vs AV 11:
Fex: 11 - 9 = 2
Probability of 2+ on 2d6 = 100%
97% chance of Penetrating Hit
3% chance of Glancing Hit
Tyrant: 11 - 5 = 6
Probability of 6+ on 2d6 = 72%
58% chance of Penetrating Hit
14% chance of Glancing Hit
Vs AV 12:
Fex: 12 - 9 = 3
Probability of 3+ on 2d6 = 97%
91% chance of Penetrating Hit
6% chance of Glancing Hit
Tyrant: 12 - 5 = 7
Probability of 7+ on 2d6 = 58%
41% chance of Penetrating Hit
17% chance of Glancing Hit
Vs AV 13:
Fex: 13 - 9 = 4
Probability of 4+ on 2d6 = 91%
83% chance of Penetrating Hit
8% chance of Glancing Hit
Tyrant: 13 - 5 = 8
Probability of 8+ on 2d6 = 41%
27% chance of Penetrating Hit
14% chance of Glancing Hit
Vs AV 14:
Fex: 14 - 9 = 5
Probability of 5+ on 2d6 = 83%
72% chance of a Penetrating Hit
11% chance of a Glancing Hit
Tyrant: 14 - 5 = 9
Probability of 9+ on 2d6 = 27%
16% chance of Penetrating Hit
11% chance of Glancing Hit
Hit with the new rule (Again same fex and tyrant):
Vs AV 10:
Fex: 10 - 9 = 1
Probability of 1+ on 1d6 = 100%
100% chance of Penetrating Hit
Tyrant: 10 - 5 = 5
Probability of 5+ on 1d6 = 34%
34% chance of Penetrating Hit
Vs AV 11:
Fex: 11 - 9 = 2
Probability of 2+ on 1d6 = 83%
83% chance of Penetrating Hit
Tyrant: 11 - 5 = 6
Probability of 6+ on 1d6 = 17%
17% chance of Penetrating Hit
Vs AV 12:
Fex: 12 - 9 = 3
Probability of 3+ on 1d6 = 66%
66% chance of Penetrating Hit
Tyrant: 12 - 5 = 7
Probability of 6 on 1d6 = 17%
Probability of 1+ on 1d6 = 100%
17% chance of Penetrating Hit
Vs AV 13:
Fex: 13 - 9 = 4
Probability of 4+ on 1d6 = 50%
50% chance of Penetrating Hit
Tyrant: 13 - 5 = 8
Probability of 6 on 1d6 = 17%
Probability of 2+ on 1d6 = 83%
14% chance of Penetrating Hit
Vs AV 14:
Fex: 14 - 9 = 5
Probability of 5+ on 1d6 = 34%
34% chance of a Penetrating Hit
Tyrant: 14 - 5 = 9
Probability of 6 on 1d6 = 17%
Probability of 3+ on 1d6 = 66%
11% chance of Penetrating Hit
Results:
As you can see between the two examples, the carnifex and tyrant still do quite worse with the RC throughout. I would say that the rule is a nice idea, but I wouldn't make RC more costly. I think the ability for Instakills on units more than makes up for the difference. But, just check me if I'm wrong, but I want to say it works like you said in the rule for normal character combat (ie 2xToughness = instakill).
I hope the math gives you an idea of how possible solutions could work out. Good Hunting.
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Oh sorry, i forgot to include that you roll 2D6 as well as glancing is counted as penetrating. I accidently deleted half of my sentence in that post.
But the basic idea is that it boosts tyrants anti-vehicle capability, rather than hinder them and also boost the fexs ability to kill multi wound characters, rather than hider it.
I don't understand.. how does being a monstrous creature aid the tyrant in killing multiwound characters?Originally Posted by Zlatko
Unless of course TMCs have some new codex rule I'm unaware of. In which case, my sillyness.
I think what's being put across is that TMC's just get an auto-wound - they don't roll to wound with their own strength, therefore the attack does not count as strength double the target's toughness and the target does not suffer instant death, as it's simply an automatic wound like...hmm...mandiblasters maybe? Still, it's an interesting point, and one that I personally (it may have been, I don't frequent the nid forums) discussed before...
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Oi! Well then, here are the second half of the numbers, as they should be:Originally Posted by Zlatko
Vs AV 10:
Fex: 10 - 9 = 1
Probability of 1+ on 2d6 = 100%
100% chance of Penetrating Hit
Tyrant: 10 - 5 = 5
Probability of 5+ on 2d6 = 83%
83% chance of Penetrating Hit
Vs AV 11:
Fex: 11 - 9 = 2
Probability of 2+ on 2d6 = 100%
100% chance of Penetrating Hit
Tyrant: 11 - 5 = 6
Probability of 6+ on 2d6 = 72%
72% chance of Penetrating Hit
Vs AV 12:
Fex: 12 - 9 = 3
Probability of 3+ on 2d6 = 97%
97% chance of Penetrating Hit
Tyrant: 12 - 5 = 7
Probability of 7+ on 2d6 = 58%
58% chance of Penetrating Hit
Vs AV 13:
Fex: 13 - 9 = 4
Probability of 4+ on 2d6 = 91%
91% chance of Penetrating Hit
Tyrant: 13 - 5 = 8
Probability of 8+ on 2d6 = 41%
41% chance of Penetrating Hit
Vs AV 14:
Fex: 14 - 9 = 5
Probability of 5+ on 2d6 = 83%
83% chance of a Penetrating Hit
Tyrant: 14 - 5 = 9
Probability of 9+ on 2d6 = 27%
27% chance of Penetrating Hit
That should be the new numbers. Now it seems a little more destructive than I had first piece together. It roughly gives an automatic penetration to a carnifex as I see it. Since a penetration of 4+ means its destroyed, I think its too powerful now.
Last edited by Paladin2ez; May 18th, 2006 at 05:08.
The truest form of tactical prowess is to make your enemy smile happily as they walk into your trap.
Hug a genestealer today!
Well to be fair, the fex still has to hit the vehicle (providing it moved). It wouldn't be unbalanced, as the fex can already achieve a better penetration/glancing roll than the table you posted by simply getting toxin sacks (S10).
The only significant change in the way rending claws work, is that multi wound opponents can now be killed (as they would of been ordinarily) if they suffer a rending wound, and vehicles are better off with rending claws rather than without them.
I decided that 'glancing counts as penetrating' might be a good way to represent the enhanced armour penetration bonus from rending claws. The current rules simply don't work with TMCs, only rolling a single dice (rather than 2) is just silly considering that rending claws are suppose to help you. Rolling 3D6 also seems a bit overkill, especially from S9 or S10 attacks, so i though that this might strike a balance between the two.