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  1. #1
    I'm Back! Koss's Avatar
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    first turn delema

    recently, someone raised the point that the first turn has too much of a tactical advantage, and effects the game too greatly. so i was thinking, maybe there should be some sort of tactical advantage given to the player who takes the 2nd turn to balance out the game. any suggestions for any solutions to this problem will be welcomed.

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  3. #2
    Senior Member Jakester's Avatar
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    What me and my friends do for the first turn, it really doesn't help that much, is we simply have a rule where there is absolutely no shooting, and no model can move more then 12". I don't know if this upsets the balance of the game or not, but it helps prevent something like a hammerhead taking out somebody's transport before the other person could even move.
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    Son of LO LordLink's Avatar
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    That upsets the balance of the game a lot Jakestar. It means you would NEVER choose to go 1st.

    In Secure and Control, Cleanse and just about every non-special mission going 2nd is better. This is because you get the LAST turn of the game. Getting the last turn means you can take an objective and do what you want without fear of any retaliation.

    First turn lets you shoot first but anything valuable should be hidden out of sight anyway. The player going first tends to start bringing vlauable things (like transports) out into the open where the 2nd turn player gets to shoot at them before moving his/her valuable things into the open.

    Basically though the first turn is balanced out by your opponent getting the last turn. both are big advantages.

    Just recently in a game of rescue I made a mistake going first. I wanted my reserves to come in before he had his whole army but in the end this was balanced out by whatever squad of mine had the objective he would pour firepower into it and force a draw. I couldn't really do much to force a win simply because he had the last turn to deny me the objective.
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    Senior Member Forsaken2544's Avatar
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    Honestly, the advantage of first turn is mitigated by things like objectives, mission level, and terrain set-up.

    Yes, if you line up across from each other in an open field, the player to go first will likely be at a distinct advantage. Especially if all of their guns are on the board.

    No offense inteded, Jakester, but if your transport gets popped 1st turn, you did not deploy it effectively. Additionally, you should never -ever- have just one transport. That just puts a big neon crosshair on it, because your opponent will know that you need it to get close, or else it wouldn't be in a transport.

    Going second already has distinct tactical advantages as well. When the game draws to a close, you can claim objectives. Putting your forces in a compromising position knowing that they are not subject to retaliation. Which means that you will likely claim many additional victory points.

    Some armies are at a disadvantage by not going first. Especially skimmer heavy forces, but these are the ones that benefit from going second because they ar usually fast enough to claim objectives.

    I mean no disrespect, but the people who claim that First Turn = Win usually don't have very much (if any) terrain, have very weak army composition, and/or aren't playing the missions.
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    I'm Back! Koss's Avatar
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    some good points.

    i realize that of course deployment is key to sucess and that the second turn does have the advantage in objective based games.

    i was just suggesting maybe some kind of rule that would make taking 2nd turn more apealing(and therefore making the game more tactical), and maybe just nerfing the impact the first turn can have just a tiny bit. you know, to tweak the game a little bit to make it more fun.

    what i'm trying to say is, you can either take first turn and have the advantage of striking first, or you could instead take second turn and benifit from some kind of special bonus.
    Last edited by Koss; November 16th, 2006 at 22:47.
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    Senior Member Jakester's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by LordLink View Post
    That upsets the balance of the game a lot Jakester. It means you would NEVER choose to go 1st.
    Oh sorry, I meant (and now I realize that I totally screwed up my wording) that BOTH players don't get to shoot on their first turns, so basically its the first and second turn with no shooting, allowing both sides to spread out and get into nicer positions. The way I figure it is, a real life battle, the two sides would not line up nicely in their little corner, then get shot at. They would be spread out/clustered together (depending on their strategy) and some things would be moving faster then others, etc.
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    Benevolent Dictator CaptainSarathai's Avatar
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    I understand what you are saying, however you have now nerfed the first turn too much. Now there is no bonus to going first at all, and yet the bonus for going 2nd (getting the last turn) will still be there. I have a few suggestions for what could be done:

    1: this is the simplest. Take turns deploying units. This is what the rules tell you to do anyways. Whoever deploys first, takes the second turn, this lets players watch eachother deploy and allows a bit of a reactionary stance.

    2: next simplest: use a bigger field, more terrain, a larger deployment zone, or reserves

    3: take your original idea of non-shooting and modify it. I would play it so that you may not shoot/assault on the first turn. Everything else is legal. Then, after playing for a predetermined number of turns (usually 6), roll a dice at the start of EACH PLAYER's turn. If either player rolls a 4,5,or 6, then the game will be played for another turn. On each player's next roll, the game continues on a 5 or 6. finally, the game will continue on 6s only. NOTE: doing this may result in one player getting 1 turn more that the other player did, but at least now you cannot be sure who gets the last, retribution free turn.

    Everything post above is valid though, so it's best to just set a turn limit and maybe even a mission, and let the game work itself out.
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    Senior Member Valerian's Avatar
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    Concealment

    Another thing that works well is just to use the Concealment rule. I don't have the book in front to give a reference, but it's back there with Reserves, and Night Fighting, etc. IIRC it allows most units to start in hiding until they move or shoot, which really helps negate a lot of first turn advantage (but doesn't completely negate it).

    Valerian

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    Senior Member Jakester's Avatar
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    Another good way to help negate the first turn advantage, is by using the dawn/dusk rules, where night fighting is used for the first couple turns, then goes away (I can't remember exactly how long it takes to go away, and I don't have my rulebook with me).
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    LO Zealot mephistophales's Avatar
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    Escalation is also an important counter to the first turn advantage. When I play tau VS witch hunters, the first turn doesn't matter at all if escalation comes into play. In fact, both players rather not have it as the person who gets it has to deploy their units earlier (making them targets). If you wanted to you could play a house rule variant that causes everything to start in reserve.

    On the other hand, then you just have the reverse problem of the person without the first turn having an advantage.
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