treating wounded soldiers. (da medic way :)) - Warhammer 40K Fantasy

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  1. #1
    I'm Back! Koss's Avatar
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    treating wounded soldiers. (da medic way :))

    ok, one thing that makes 40k a bit unrealistic is that whenever a model is wounded and fails an armor save, it becomes a casualty. it is common sense that not every wound is fatal. when a soldier is wounded in real combat, his squad mates will do everything they can to keep him alive, trying to stop the bleeding and keep the wounded soldier from succoming to thier wounds. becuase of this, i waz thinking of having a house rule that could represent this.

    so here is what i came up with:
    - If a model fails armor save, do not remove it right away, but instead, see if the shot cuased a fatal wound. make a toughness test for the model(roll equal or under it's toughness). if it is failed, remove the model as normal. however, if it was passed, place the model laying down up against the base of a friendly model in the squad. this friendly squadmate, will be trying to tend to the wounded soldier's wounds.(do note however, if the soldier was wounded by anything that ignores armor saves or cuases instant death, they always become a casualty.) At the beginning of the owning players next turn, take a toughness test for the wounded model(to see if he bleeds to death or can't take the pain, and dies). If this is failed, remove the model. If it is passed he hangs in there and the friendly model may attempt to treat the wound. Roll a dice, on a 5+, the wounded model stands back up and is still able to fight. If not, the model remains injured. Ever following turn, you must take a toughness test for the wounded model or it will become a casualty and be removed. You may attempt for the friendly model to heal the injured soldier once per turn. A unit with wounded models may not move, unless it leaves both the wounded model, and the healing model behind. The tender may not do anything but try to heal the model(until it either dies or stands back up). You may have one tender for every wounded model. if the number of wounded exceeds the number of possible tenders, the excess models are just removed as normal. If a unit containing wounded models is charged, the tender and the wounded model will immediately fallback 2d6 inches, regrouping immediately (as the tender drags the wounded soldier to a safer possition). if the tender and the wounded model are seperated from thier squad, and the wounded model stands back up, they may join any friendly squad they come within 6" of(to represent them trying to get back in the fight). if the friendly model attempting to heal his mate gets killed, remove both models.

    i've been play testing this a bit and i really like this rule. i think it makes the game a bit more like a real battle and i have found that it is not overpowered (since it is pretty freaking hard to heal the models, before they end up dying from bleeding to death AKA all those "toughness tests")

    anyway, if anyone thinks this rule has any potential let me know. any one who has some suggestions on how to improve it would be mostly apreciated.

    thx

    Last edited by Koss; November 29th, 2006 at 03:34.
    That is not dead which may eternal lie,
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  3. #2
    Member Ignorant Bliss's Avatar
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    I like it, it adds a realistic edge to a game that's pretty black and white as far as war goes (dead - alive, nothing in between)

    The only problem i can see is with races who don't care about their kin, like Orks, Tyranids, Chaos, and Necrons. It makes sense for Imperial Guard, Tau, Eldar, Dark Eldar, and maybe Space Marines.
    You can live to be a hundred if you give up all the things that make you want to live to be a hundred. ~ Woody Allen

  4. #3
    Has a monkey! Imperialis_Dominatus's Avatar
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    It's interesting and I like it, but I can see armies like Death Guard really getting away with bad things here. Perhaps use only the base toughness?

    Also there is a clause in the rulebook that states if a model is removed it need not be dead... just incapacitated. Though if they are Guardsmen they are probably dead...

    It also kind of complexifies (I'm gonna be an English major, I can make up words if I want to) the game. You'd have to remember which models were bleeding or whatever. And anything T4 or less would really be living on borrowed time. Plus, T6 never die...

  5. #4
    I'm Back! Koss's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Imperialis_Dominatus View Post
    It's interesting and I like it, but I can see armies like Death Guard really getting away with bad things here. Perhaps use only the base toughness?

    Also there is a clause in the rulebook that states if a model is removed it need not be dead... just incapacitated. Though if they are Guardsmen they are probably dead...

    It also kind of complexifies (I'm gonna be an English major, I can make up words if I want to) the game. You'd have to remember which models were bleeding or whatever. And anything T4 or less would really be living on borrowed time. Plus, T6 never die...
    well obvoisly, certain races and units can't use this rule, and common sense should just be used to determine what can and can't do this(so no tyranids, necrons, Khorne berzerkers. also, plague marines wouldn't make sense as it would be hard for them to heal a wound since they are disease ridden anyway. also, anything too stupid to heal someone, try giving a med pack to a big mutant:x, cant do this ) also, i would say a roll of a 6 always fails.

    i understand why you would think it complex, as i felt this at first, but if you play test it, its actually quite easy to remeber, as the wounded models are laying down(easy to spot) on a friendly models base. so at the start of the turn, just scan the board and do a toughness test plus healing test for each laying down model.

    anyway thx all for the feedback.
    more crazy rules to come soon:shifty:
    That is not dead which may eternal lie,
    for in strange aeons even death may die.

  6. #5
    Senior Member Badruk the Mighty's Avatar
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    Sounds like an interesting idea. And it would be usable by most races. Orks Painboy and Painboss would do it to earn a few teef (and get spare organs/limbs for future patients/victims), Dark Eldar and Chaos would do it because it would be a chance to torture someone while sewing them up, While Tyranids would do it to see if the injured creature is worth either salvaging or recycling (Harvest the living biomass!).

    It would also be a handy rule to use when trying to capture or protect a target in some battle/killteam missions.
    If you drop a shell on your foot an it don't urt, your shoota aint big enough!

  7. #6
    Senior Member Shoal07's Avatar
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    First, I think you're taking "Armor Save" a little too literal. The Armor Save roll doesn't just represent the armor deflecting the shot but also minor wounds that don't incapacitate the soldier (at least that's how it was explained to me fluff wise).

    Second, an incapacitating wound is just that. Sure, they may not be dead, but they can't fight anymore. They could be dazed, in shock, stunned, lose a limb, etc.

    Third, in real battle you actually want to wound the enemy's troops, not kill them. For every 1 wounded that's 2 more that have to carry him off the field of battle. So, 1 dead = 1 out of the fight, 1 wounded = 2-3 out of the fight (unless they leave their wounded to die, most armies today do not).

    To actually remove a model you have to hit them (1st roll), wound them (2nd roll) and then they must fail an armor save (3rd roll). It’s already tough to eliminate sturdy models from the field (MEQ). GEQ’s are supposed to die in droves. In a real fight, guys would die much faster to fire. There’s no armor save and the “to hit? roll would be everyone hitting on 2s (nobody’s as inaccurate as someone in 40k. You’d have modern armies hitting on 2s, low techs/poorly trained on 3s, and civilians who have never fired a gun in their life on 4s or 5s). The only thing that saves you in a real fight is cover. Two Marine squads standing toe to toe would blast each other to death in about 5 seconds.

    So, I already think the game is unrealistic in the sense that it’s too hard to die. In real war (especially the way these 40k armies fight, more civil war toe-to-toe fights) your casualty rate would be much higher.

    Finally, casualty does not mean dead. Anyone wounded or incapacitated is a casualty. Casualty can be anything from shrapnel nicking your leg to gibbed (little pieces scattered everywhere ).
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  8. #7
    Son of LO The_Giant_Mantis's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Shoal07 View Post
    Finally, casualty does not mean dead. Anyone wounded or incapacitated is a casualty. Casualty can be anything from shrapnel nicking your leg to gibbed (little pieces scattered everywhere ).
    Yeah..

    Given that a 6 turn game of 40k perhaps represents a maximum of a couple of minutes in 'combat time', being knocked over or momentarily stunned could result in becoming a 'casualty.'

    For the same reason, I don't think you need rules for wound recovery. While it's all very dramatic to have troops sitting around cradling dying comrades, there just isn't time. Games don't represent slow, drawn out skirmishes, they're the intense, death or glory moments where it's best just to leave the wounded behind. If you like, it's perfectly reasonable to assume there are unmodelled medics running around seeing to the wounded while the battle takes place, but since they won't be fighting they don't really need to be represented.

  9. #8
    Tabletop Terraformer Tzeentch Lord's Avatar
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    I quite like this house rule, it's pretty original (well I've never seen anything like it before) and it does add an extra element of realism to the game. I am a little concerned that these two bits though:
    Quote Originally Posted by alexpape7 View Post
    A unit with wounded models may not move, unless it leaves both the wounded model, and the healing model behind........If a unit containing wounded models is charged, the tender and the wounded model will immediately fallback 2d6 inches, regrouping immediately
    As someone pointed out, many races in the 40k universe couldn't care less about their wounded (Chaos and Tyranids being prime examples). So forces that would use this rule (like Imperial Guard, Tau and Space Marines) might be unfairly disadvantaged by having any unit that takes one or more casualties being prevented from moving unless they leave their casualties and the unwounded tenders behind.

    Unfortunately the rules of 40k are so far removed from any semblance of realism, trying to add realistic elements to the system often results in either unfair advantages or disadvantages to one faction or another. A prime example is Shoal07's comment about 'the only thing that saves you in a real fight is cover'. While it isn't strictly the only thing that can save you, in a real gun battle, cover really is a soldiers best friend. The vast majority of ammunition fired by troops and field weapons will never actually hit anyone, either because it hits the cover the troops are hiding behind, or it's simply being fired to keep troops pinned down anyway.

    Of course, absolutely none of this is reflected in the 40k rules system, which is essentially just a game of maneuver and attrition. Troops taking cover is pretty much a non-issue (cover saves?! what were they thinking...). Which is the main reason why I don't play 40k anymore, they used to have to hit modifiers for cover (which makes more sense), but the geniuses behind the current edition decided cover saves were a better idea instead. *sigh*

    Anyway, the point is, that taking care of wounded could only really happen if the system made provisions for other realistic battlefield elements (such as cover, suppression fire, etc). While I think it's a great idea for a house rule, it still probably needs some work in order to integrate it with a highly unrealistic rules system.

    Quote Originally Posted by Shoal07
    First, I think you're taking "Armor Save" a little too literal. The Armor Save roll doesn't just represent the armor deflecting the shot but also minor wounds that don't incapacitate the soldier (at least that's how it was explained to me fluff wise).
    As far as I know, armour saves really are just that, whether or not a shot is stopped by armour or not. The fluff about minor wounds, grazes, concussion, etc are explained away by the 'to wound' roll.
    "Peace, through superior firepower."

  10. #9
    I'm Back! Koss's Avatar
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    ok, first off, i'm not trying to make 40k some sort of super realistic game. i mean its a Sci fi game, as there arn't actually giant killer robots in a real war. i just wanted to add a fun rule that people might enjoy using in thier game.its ment to represent the fact that if your squadmate was shot, you would try to help him, not just leave him behind. i mean if you don't like the rule, just tell me. you don't have to go on a long rant about how the rule isn't realistic, i mean its just meant for fun (i'm not accusing of anyone having meant to cuase harm, but sometimes it can sound that way). the point of this post was to ask people if they thought the rule was reasonable/ useable and what ways it could be improved.

    To actually remove a model you have to hit them (1st roll), wound them (2nd roll) and then they must fail an armor save (3rd roll). It’s already tough to eliminate sturdy models from the field (MEQ). GEQ’s are supposed to die in droves. In a real fight, guys would die much faster to fire. There’s no armor save and the “to hit? roll would be everyone hitting on 2s (nobody’s as inaccurate as someone in 40k. You’d have modern armies hitting on 2s, low techs/poorly trained on 3s, and civilians who have never fired a gun in their life on 4s or 5s). The only thing that saves you in a real fight is cover. Two Marine squads standing toe to toe would blast each other to death in about 5 seconds.
    this rule is not as over powered as you are making it out to be. as soon as you fail the armor save you have to make a toughness test, meaning you have a pretty good chance of dying anyway. then there is a very low likely hood of the model actually being able to heal you right away. plus you will be having to take a toughness test every turn, meaning that if you don't get lucky and healed rather quickly, the wounded model may only survive a turn or two longer, if it's lucky. i've been try this out, the number of models that actually get up is very low, and you may only get a few back over the corse of a battle. and regarding guardsmen dying in droves, they still do, as they have a pretty freaking hard time pasing those toughness tests

    as for the whole thing about how the unit can not move with wounded models, i may have to consider to tweak that a bit. maybe i could use something like "the wounded model and the tender imediately fall back 2d6 inches towards the nearest cover (draging his bud to safety). and that they may join any friendly unit if they succeed in healing the soldier" or maybe regarding movement, a unit can move if it has wounded models, but then can't attempt a healing check that turn. i don't know, i'll have to think about this one.

    when it comes to what races can use this rule, i think we have come up with reasons why or why not each race could use this rule.

    anyway, just to reiterate my point, this rule is not meant to be super realistic. it's just an abstract representation of a concept, as many 40k rules are. its meant to be taken lightly and shouldn't be taken so seriously. anyway, sorry if i buged anyone by this.
    Last edited by Koss; November 29th, 2006 at 23:01.
    That is not dead which may eternal lie,
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  11. #10
    Member Kabanov's Avatar
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    A tad unlikely

    I'm not too hot on this idea myself....

    Working on the basis of the fluff 40K has with it, most wounds are going to be significant/fatal. An explode-after-impact bolter shell to just about any location is going to be troublesome (maybe this is why so many of my guardsmen die?). If you have something that can bypass the already over-generous survival system, chances are it will have killed them.

    Also, from the point of view of an IG player, does this make my lasguns even more useless? I am currently struggling to kill two marines per volley, now they can get back up again?!?

    I like the idea of the rules, but they would make the game even slower and also complicate things quite a lot.... Also makes MEQs much harder than even they are supposed to be, points-wise. You would have to recost everything to relfect the advantage of being that much tougher...

    As an aside, I refer you to Mossmac's lethal 40K rules. This might work quite well in that set, as people get hit and die much faster and more easily, so there is more scope for medics.

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