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I see that there's a great deal of excitement about Apocalypse, but it seems to all be from 40K players. Since, at least where I'm from, Fantasy players hate 40K, I was wondering what everyone else thinks about it?
I, for one, can't stop laughing. I will admit I don't know if I have all the information right. I was at GamesDay Chicago, and my friend had to go to the retailer's seminar. He came back and told me what he had gathered from what they said.
From what I've gotten, it's 3000pt minimum, which in itself I find kind of lame. I see that as just a way to get people satisfied with 1000 or 2000 point games to dish out more cash.
Something about you can have any unit from any army. I can respect this to a degree. People will have allies, but something about the possibility of mortal enemies on the same side rubs me the wrong way.
I also got something about your army can be anything as long as it meets the point requirements. So is this meaning you can field 3000 pts of Land Raiders if you wanted? I PRAY this information is wrong.
The templates are kinda stupid. It's the apocalypse of the world, so flamethrowers have better range? The nuke idea is interesting, but terribly delievered. In the game I watched, it was lay down a template anywhere on the board, remove everything under it. That's just lazy game making. And what's with this Vortex grenade template? It's a dome, okay.... why?
The demo game they had might've been what hurt it so badly. The guy running it had someone roll a handful of dice, then refused to answer him when he asked what he was rolling for. After he rolled, the guy counted removed a seemingly random number of models. All this while the manager of my local store had a look of disgust on his face. 40K is this guy's life, too.
I like where the idea is coming from, but to me, this is just a cash-in. It's a way of selling two Monoliths instead of one. it also feels as if GW is saying that 40K is not a serious game. Fantasy players can agree that GW seems to give 40K all the perks, but this is more like trying to give them something so they'll shut up and give them even more of their money.
Any thoughts from Fantasy players on what you think about this? Again, I don't know if all this is right, so feel free to correct me. Also, sorry if it's wrong.
I doubt i will play any armegeddon games, but i will likely buy a baneblade and covert it into an orc battlewagon.
I play fantasy now(and 40k from time to time) becuase 40k was to crazy like
OMG BOOM die die die zap zap zap Lol OMG
stuff was just kill kill kill, and it got old. Still love the models though. Apocolypse may be a mixed blessing for me. The complexity involved in such large games may be fun, and hopefully the new rules will be managable. I hear also that they will be releasing new VDR rules which let people dezine thier own vehicals and titans. However, it could just be anouther whoever has the most templates/ lascannons wins scenerio, in which case i will just collect the cool looking models that will come out. I like the playstyle of fantasy better though, as it is less OMG crazy.
the cool thing is that you can field all the stuff you own without hassle. The bad thing is people can abuse this by going out and buying 50 landraiders/ carnifexes/ titans.
That is not dead which may eternal lie,
for in strange aeons even death may die.
As for all the excitement about Apocalypse coming from 40k players - why would anyone else be really excited about it? You are likely not alone in the notion that this is GW's way of selling more of the expensive stuff. Even if that is the case, I don't mind as long as they have a fun idea behind it.
I'm refraining from comment on most your information about Apocalypse in general. While these may be facts to you, they are just rumors to me.Honestly, anyone who actually has 3000pts worth of Land Raiders is more than welcome to field such a force, in my opinion.So is this meaning you can field 3000 pts of Land Raiders if you wanted? I PRAY this information is wrong.To me, this sounds more likely to be the result of an unprepared someone running the game.The demo game they had might've been what hurt it so badly. The guy running it had someone roll a handful of dice, then refused to answer him when he asked what he was rolling for. After he rolled, the guy counted removed a seemingly random number of models. All this while the manager of my local store had a look of disgust on his face. 40K is this guy's life, too.I mean no offense to your friend, but keep in mind that your impression comes from what he told you he witnessed of a game that may or may not have been well-prepared, or even played correctly. And if he has a dubious attitude about Apocalypse to begin with, this would cloud his interpretation even more. I'm not saying you're wrong, just that until the game is in your hands, you won't have a solid idea of what it's all about.it also feels as if GW is saying that 40K is not a serious game.True, GW sometimes seems to pool more effort overall into 40k, bu it's a business decision. I can understand that. 40k sells more, and is more likely to draw new players.Fantasy players can agree that GW seems to give 40K all the perks, but this is more like trying to give them something so they'll shut up and give them even more of their money.
I never really feel like Fantasy is lacking for perks though. We've got a great system, and now a yearly campaign to keep it interesting. New armies are coming out at a reasonably acceptable pace (don't say that in front of the Dark Elf players), and the models are getting more and more fantastic with every release. If Fantasy gets less perks, I think it's probably because Fantasy doesn't need as many perks.
If 40k needs something like Apocalypse to energize it, then so be it (I am entertained to hear that they're turning 40k into "Nuke the Crap out of 'Em 40,000"). I will not be looking for anything even remotely similar for Fantasy, and I'm not sure how I'd feel about one if it came along. What I'm most curious about with Apocalypse is the fluff and storyline behind it (if any). To me, 40k is a great story with a game built around it, while Fantasy is a great game with a story built around it.
Well as someone who has been playing both Warhammer and 40K since the first editions of the games, I think Apocalypse is a breath of fresh air in this era of dumbed down and overly restive lists in both games current incarnations. What happened to having a good time playing a beer and pretzels game with friends?
You know, just playing a game for the fun of it, rather than the current mathhammer competitive games. I see it all the time on forums all the talk of the Metagame and how certain units are a no-brainer while others should never be used cause they're crap. For example look around the net at the discussions about HW+shields verses Spear+shields in WHFB. Competitive play has forced GW to make changes to the rules and add restrictions to the army lists. I'm not bashing competitive play I like going to tourneys, but am just pointing out some facts.
Then there's the dumbing down of the games like nerfing of the WS and to wound Charts, long gone are the days when a goblin couldn't hurt anything tougher than T7; or fighting an opponent with a WS 2+ higher than your own would require a 6+ to hit. How about the good old days when archers could fire multiple ranks. My final note is the over neutering of the good ol' Chaos warrior, currently these guys aren't worth their points not by a long shot.
All of the changes haven't been bad either, I'm just pointing out some of the worst changes in my opinion.
Back to the topic at hand Apocalypse is a hearkening back to the good ol' days of gaming just for the sake of having a fun laid back time with your buddies. Most play today is just pick up games at the local shop or club, again there's nothing wrong with that, but if your a player for the fun of it you'll be at the mercy of the Competitive gamer.
Apocalypse is for those gamers of liked mind that want to have a laid back fun time. I highly doubt pick up games of Apocalypse will work. The competitive player will probably exploit the looseness of rules in Apocalypse and thusly ruin the experience.
Apocalypse is not just about GW making more money; it is about giving something back to the vets. They are trying to inject a little freedom into the game want to remind us that the game is about having a good time.
Sorry about the long post.
I have been playing fantasy for about 12 years now and 40k for about 6.
First of all in regards to the flame template size changes you mentioned, both 40k and fantasy used to have 12" flame templates and there were a large number of people complaining when they reduced the size of them down to the 12" once so bring back the big flamers I say.
Part of the reason I feel they are bringing out apocalypse is that in 40k there is a maximum point limit any army can achieve, and every army is different. There is currently no rules on what to do when you file up the entire force organisation chart. Apocalypse is a means to get a universal answer to how do we get a really big game in. I know that most of my gaming group will not have to spend out large to play as we generally have 3000point armies each to start with. One of my mates has 3000 points in sisters, grey knights and 6000 in Dark Angels.
Fantasy on the other hand has no unit cap on the organisation structure, the only requirement to have a bigger game is to have more core, which I think is a good way of doing things but while not work as well in a 40k sense in my opinion.
Sorry so long, regards
Take my love, take my land, take me to where I cannot stand; I don't care I'm still free, you can't take the sky from me.
"The difference between gods and daemons largely depends upon where one is standing at the time."- Lorgar
Member of the Fluff Masters Clan
Apocalypse is freaking awesome...
Gamers all over the internet have been screaming and screaming at GW saying "it sucks how they only cater to n00bs, why can't they give us guys with a bigger army something."
This is the 1st time Games-Workshop has released something for the veteran gamer rather than releasing more box sets or more newbie guides, I couldn't have asked for better from them!
Now if you think they should focus exclusively on new players and think GW have been doing perfectly up until now I guess you're entitled to your opinion...
Check out my Codex: Farmyard Animals here!
If anyone wants any kind of help writing fluff for any kind of GW army just ask.
I admit, it would be nice to use my whole mini collection... including my scratch built titan that has never had any use except looking cool.
That is not dead which may eternal lie,
for in strange aeons even death may die.
I used to play Fantasy as well. Oh, we had our laughs at the 40k players and how their rules were so simplistic and their tactics non-existent and how if they put an army on the table that was just a bunch of troops lined up to shoot at each other in Fantasy, they'd be laughed off the stage. The thing is, yeah, 40k has always been more about fun for me than doing anything clever or brilliant in terms of tactics. Apocalypse fills a hole that has been missing in 40k for awhile, to my mind, a scenario where large armies fight large armies instead of small armies breaking out into skirmishes along the border. It provides a sound ending to a long campaign or an entertaining weekend with your friends.
I will admit, I don't yet trust GW to have worked out all the kinks in terms of basic balancing (3 Monoliths give a bonus to WBB? I'm not so sure about that one...) but I do acknowledge at the same time that any attempt to balance a game on such a massive scale is going to be frustrating and you probably won't catch everything, especially when you've got all these armies to deal with.
Larger flame templates? I can tell you why they're there. For larger flamers! You don't really expect a Baneblade-mounted Flamer (if a Baneblade could mount a Flamer) to have the ridiculous 8" range of a standard hand-flamer, would you? Vortex Grenades? Well, those are just cool...