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OM FING G! Not five yearsand now THIS!
Just five years ago they overhauled third edition and now their at it again! I KNEW something like this would happen after WotC took over, the new version will have, you guessed it,
1: More books to buy, the rules are now spread out over not just 3 core books but an estimated 9.
2: Fewer classes, from 11 to 8.
3: No chalenge rateings some new system involveing 'monster level' will be used.
I for one have no intention of purchaseing or even reading this! 3.5 works fine thanks, your not gona have me running to grab the latest expansion set, er, I mean "Core Rule Book". >
Last edited by Lost Nemesis; October 30th, 2007 at 19:08.
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Meh, thats pretty much the same reaction everyone had when 3.0 came out to replace 2nd Ed. and don't forget how angry everyone was when the released 3.5. I think it is way too early to judge whether or not the books will be good or not. There will be 3 core books, not nine like you heard. The classes are getting an overhaul to make each one actually matter and to balance them out so people don't feel obligated to be a stereotypical archetype of their class. I remember Dnd 1st ed and ADnD, they were both playable and fun. 2nd ed changed things but it was still obviously dnd, and still fun. 3rd ed changed things, it was still dnd and it was still fun. I am pretty sure the pattern will continue.
Last edited by Lost Nemesis; October 30th, 2007 at 19:09.
seriously though, 3.5 was crap. I spent over $200 on 3.0 and then they put out 3.5. "EVERYTHING IS 95% THE SAME AND A LOT OF THE PROBLEMS ARE STILL THERE BUT FEEL FREE TO BUY IT AGAIN!!!!"
4.0 is going to be worth buying. Class balance, party structure, ease of play and ease of setup, more exciting and original low level play, high level play thats still as fun as mid level play and computer resources are all a focus of 4th ed, and all are really quite needed. To pull off the kind of changes they're trying to change, they cant just put out a new source book (theres too many anyway), they need a new edition. And so a new edition we have.
this "5 years thing" is a weak arguement- the game isnt advancing in accordance with some calander marked with equidistant dates designated for new editions. theres no schedule. New material comes when theres a need for it and when it's ready. There's a need for this edition, and it will come out when it's ready.
So whats the problem? Did you want to stick with an inferior system for a longer period of time? If you're insistent on it, then go ahead. Wizards isnt forcing you to upgrade. Keep playing 3.5 if you want to. If you dont want to then you're as good as admitting that 4.0 is worth it and your arguements against it are void.
fear the smurfs
I just hope like frick they don't nerf Paladins.
Oh wait, what am I saying? They'll release a supplement within three months that has a variant Paladin class that leads to a prestige class that gives my Paladin a 9d6+12 sneak attack bonus that automatically cripples them so they can't take their Dex bonus and always count as flat-footed for the purposes of any further sneak attacks.
That's why I don't like 3.5 that much. Supplements. You're playing Jack Paladin with your friend Mr. Rogue, and all of the sudden Evil Wizard Evilwizardington saunters over and takes a level in Arcane Trickster and two levels in Spellsword, and next round he's wearing plate mail and hurling 3 Maximised Fireballs every goddamn round for some silly reason.
"Oh, it's all legal, it's all in this supplement book I forgot to bring with me tonight. But I memorised their BAB, it's cool. What? Yeah, it's a +8 AC bonus. For being tricksy."
Last edited by Lost Nemesis; October 30th, 2007 at 19:10.
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Mr_Wayne: "Some people believe that the World Eaters do not field any ranged weaponry. Those people often die at a distance."
These gents have summed it up. You are more than entitled to your feelings, of course, but both 3E and 3.5 saw the exact same kind of rants.
Fact is I'm hearing some very cool things about 4E. Some basic assumptions about how the game works, and perhaps more importantly how classes and parties work, have been re-thought and addressed. In short, this probably won't be your older brother's D&D anymore.
I'll give it a chance anyway. You can't believe everything you hear, right?
I started playing 3.5 a year or so ago so i'l be damned if I'm buying any more books. I bought 6 of them and got the PDFs of the rest.
I wonder if anyone has noticed the irony of someone on a primarily GW game forum, complaining about another update requiring the spending of more money just to stay "up-to-date" with the game.....
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haha, seems to be a big difference between spending £30 every 5 years and pfff I dunno £150 every 5 years
Let me try and rant on this with some structure. I'll try and represent what I think is the good that could come out of 4th edition.
To begin, if anybody has a right to complain about 4th I should be one of them. I personally loved 2nd edition the most (and well 1st edition was a blast too) because so little of the rules were scrutenized with... well rules. It seemed more open ended and home rulesy. I liked that there was, for the most part, only core classes. I also liked that all the races seemed reasonably balanced. The humans were of course penalized by not really having any bonuses (unless you count level restrictions which nobody used).
To that end, when 3.0 came out I think I had mixed feelings at first. I personally loved seeing the revival of the monk in an almost perfect homage to the 1st edition version. Some classes got extremely unbalanced though. Priests in general went from moderately above the curve to matchless. They could fight but in one way or another had pretty strict armor/weapon restrictions and their magic in general had a lower maximum level. Now they can basically do all of that, the druid moreso and it really leaves classes like paladin and ranger in the dust. Even if you go back and compare the customization systems it and the previous systems used there was a much better way. Prestiege classes got a bit out of hand. Their solution was less fixing the balance of the core as releasing a book every 5 seconds with another dozen prestiege classes. There is almost no chance for balance if you allow players to design characters with an endless list of these classes with ability that when combined become more unbalanced than the already were in the first place. At least the kit system had you be what you were going to be from the get-go and stripped you of certain core abilities to replace your new ones. That had much more balance than the current.
Not everything was bad about 3.0 though. The feat system was clever though even that gets out of whack. By the way, this is a good time to stress that anything can be solved by banning certain books or combonations in your adventure, nevertheless releasing such a range is a bit sloppy. But if you take the feats in the PHB and compare them across the board, the feats in the later books get more and more absurd. Oh yes I'll take lightning reflexes for +2 save bonus to one type of save instead of being able to shoot hadukens with my monk! They did consolidate a lot of the numbers and slayed the vile demon THAC0. That could have all been resolved in 2.5 though couldnt it?
All that out of the way, from what I can tell they are attempting with 4th edition is something thats been only recently tapped into. For starters race is going to be a BIG deal. I love it because it guarantees if not for purely roleplaying purposes than for playing style purposes you will see more diverse gaming tables now. Races will have their uniquenesses from the beginning but in addition to what class they choose. I think that is bloody brilliant and you've seen the surface of it in some of the race books that were released in the past year or two. Those optional rules have really been a big hit in our gaming circle, as I'm sure they have been in many. One of the big downfalls to the system is the casters have always scaled differently than non casters. And by mid to high level they are matchless. Well, book of nine swords was just a cleverly disguised test book for 4th edition and a lot of what your going to see for melee is coming from that book. The most important thing 4th is doing is absolutely solidifying each classes role. So a paladin isnt just a terrible cleric with a slightly better combat rating and a ranger isnt just a fighter who traded most of his feats for a little bit of druidic magic. In fact they say the new ranger will be much closer to the scout + what we already know about the ranger. I think anybody who plays a long term dnd campaign where leveling doesn't occur as quickly can respect that they are making sure there are no dead levels for any class. Spells are broken up into smoother curve. Rather than 9 bulky levels there are essentially levels for every class level. So spells are broken up into a much more exact placement.
I'll cut short for now, but I think that all the editions are viable for fun, it depends on what you were raised on in part. My DM friend, who has a virtual library of 3.5 and is at this point unwilling to change out for 4.0 agrees with me completely that its totally unbalanced but we also agree with this "I think the game designers made all of these options so that people that wanted a low power role playing campaign could have that and also so the rulemongers that powergame and min-max could have theirs. We know we play for character development and for fun and we can trust each other to not get carried away so why should that count against 3.5. We'll look at 4.0 but we have so much more content RIGHT NOW for 3.5 that I cant see doing it"
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My $0.02: Seems far too early for anyone to be arguing about it. All new information about it has been vague and mostly fluff. I'll wait until it comes out, take a look, and then make a decision as to whether I want to switch over or not.
So as not to appear to be a total fence-sitter, I'll also add that when 3d and even 3.5 came out, I was optimistic and excited about what I'd heard, and I'm very glad that I switched over (and happen to think that most problems people have with it are their own fault, not the game), and felt the same way about the switch from AD&D to 2nd Ed. On the other hand, I grow a little more pessimistic about fourth every time I WotC tells us something about it. The fluff strikes me as poorly thought out, but hey, it's just fluff, and if there's a game where you can ignore that, it's D&D. I love the concept for the racial bonuses. The new saving throw system sounds intensely stupid. The new wizard system seems silly. The new armor class feels dumbed-down and over-simplified. The replaced CR system strikes me as cookie-cutter foolishness. The higher levels, more powerful characters (low level in particular), and especially 'everyone is equally good at combat' direction it's going gives me the impression that the game is being pushed towards a more hack-and-slash, simplistic, MMO style of game - which may be what some people want, but certainly isn't for me.
Again, this is 90% conjecture, and before ANYONE can say anything definitive about the game, we'll have to wait and see what it's actually like and how much we actually enjoy it.