Suggestion 'Best' Army Lists?

[distortiondave]

Would it be possible to maybe sticky what the board considers to be the 'best' army lists in a section?
I know 'best' is subjective, but I'm thinking for lists to direct new (insert army) users to.

For example - if you have never played Tau before and have just bought the codex it is a little mindboggling with all the rules for the wargear etc.

Each army has its own resident expert on here, those who generally answer every question thrown at them and provide good advice, so maybe they could draw up a simple 1500 point list for their respective force as a good starting point for new users.
This forum provides tons of good advice but its not always so easy to find, and referring people to a link could tidy up all the 'new to tau/necron/nid' posts that crop up.

I mean, I'll not leave home without a chaplain led assault squad, a LST and an 8 man 4 missile launcher devastator squad now (until 5th anyway) - thanks to the users of the SM board - but if I wanted to start a more complex army, like Tau or Eldar, I wouldn't know where to begin.

Just a thought.

[Stonehambey]

Cool idea, I know in FB phoenix has made a thread of 'famous' lists, e.g. Those which have won votewars etc, they would be quite useful for a beginner of FB to browse through.

You could start a thread asking for good beginner armies in each forum, then ask a mod to add it to the forum's index. Lost Nemesis has been redoing the indexes for 40K recently I think so you could ask him

[Zarahemna]

I think you are too right, 'best' is so subjective that it can't be boiled down to a couple of sample lists. The real fun of LO is trawling through the forums related to the army of your choice and learning about the range of techniques that other players use when they build army lists.

Space Marines are really quite straightforward, with the more complex armies your chances of producing a near-definitive basic list are virtually non-existent.

[Phoenix]

Originally Posted by Stonehambey

Cool idea, I know in FB phoenix has made a thread of 'famous' lists, e.g. Those which have won votewars etc, they would be quite useful for a beginner of FB to browse through.

Indeed I did, although they may not necessarily be good beginner armies.. more focussed on winning than anything, so can be kinda unbalanced. Also, doing well in a VW doesnt mean it will do as well IRL necessarily.


Id be happy to do good rounded beginners lsts for Crons, Brets, TK and Beasts. I huess if we just get a few people together then we can get a beginner thread stickied in every forum.


I agree with Zara about the 'best' being a Point of View, but i think every army has a pretty decent, standard beginning that most players can agree on, so possibly go for threads aimed at beginners, giving them a base to work from, rather than a complete list to aim for, which may not suit their style.

[InquisitorAffe]

The best army list is the one you make yourself based on the models and unit types you're enthusiastic about and refine over time as you win and lose games. I'm vocally opposed to anything that endorses the 'net-lising' that breeds so much resentment and animosity in gaming groups. There are plenty of resources for people who are asking the question "What models should I go buy to stomp the snot out of my friends and/or opponents on the local RTT scene" and I don't think the people looking for that info are the sort of intarweb-noobs who need help finding it.

This Forum has lots of great resources for people to learn more about the list-building metagame; it'd be a shame to do an end run around that. Nobody learns Calculus by looking at solved problems. You learn by reading a text book and receiving instruction on how to solve them yourself. If people are enthusiastic about a particular style of list within an army, the right thing to do is write a tactica extolling the virtues of that tye of list and submit it to the articles section! Then those articles, instead of just a sterile army list, can be linked from a sticky in the list forum. Contribute your experience and the things you've learned for other people to learn from, not just a buy-list of minis for the next would-be power gamer. Don't stifle future discourse in the army list forums by sending the message: 'forget your questions, just go buy these models and use this army if you want to win' with a sticky thread.

Take a look around, high quality tacticas generate pages and pages of equally high quality discussion that everyone can learn something from. Posts of winning lists at best get a few "Yup, purrrrty Cheesey" replies.

[distortiondave]

With respect, I don't think you've read the opening post properly.
Nowhere have I stated I want to see lists of power gaming, cheesy lists or anything like that.
I asked about the posibility of lists designed to help those new to a race - a basic core force that will suit beginners and take on all comers not necessarily very effectively, but will give you a good understanding of the unit types in your army, what works and what does and from there you can make your own decisions.

'Nobody learns Calculus by looking at solved problems. You learn by reading a text book and receiving instruction on how to solve them yourself.'

You said so yourself. I have the text book, but wheres my instruction?
The above example states you need both the book and help, but when it comes to making your own list you should work it out for yourself? A little bit contradictory.

I repeat - I didn't suggest power lists, but lists that go with the general consensus.
What weapon combinations are effective on battlesuits, which aspect warriors are most effective in a coverall list, which heavy weapons should I take on my devastators.
That way, when I decide to collect Tau I can check a basic list and make my own mind up from there.

I also don't think its reasonable to expect someone new to an army to make up their own list, buy all the models, paint them, model them and then realise the list isn't workable. I don't have that kind of money or time to waste, and neither do a lot of people.

[InquisitorAffe]

Sorry, didn't mean to come off so hostile. I feel like the logical conclusion of asking people for the 'best' army is the mathematically optimized unit choices and the list that wins the most games. These are the only purely quantitative measures we have. Searching out what's the most effective combination of battle suit weapons is inherently a power gaming question! (Mind you I don't use that term as a perjorative. I sometimes play a min/maxed army list myself. I just don't like it when people are steered in that direction as the only way to play.)

To me the textbook is the tacticas and accumulated wisdom provided by more experienced members. You can read those, get the Codex, come up with some lists based on what you've learned, and post them for C&C and discussion. My fear is that posting just stickied lists is like looking at the answers without solving the problems. And having a 'recommended' list may discourage new players from posting as much and stifle discussion.

It just sounds to me like what would really fill the role you're talking about is more/better tacticas for players new to an army. A collaborative tactica can also preserve some of the discussion between experienced players regarding, for example, the merits of banshees vs scorpions. Whereas a list would only reflect who came out on top at the end of that discussion.

[Phoenix]

I did think tactica to begin with, but the problem with them is that they are often too large for a newer player to easily be able to digest and take in everything he may want. At the same time, it will be far better for the Player to learn from his own experience, rather than play off the back of other peoples, to begin with at least.

If no one has any objections, i think ill go ahead and write one up in the TK forum. It will be very useful to link to, as there are often a number of players there who post with ''1K, what to do? I have the Batallion, etc'' kind of thing.

[distortiondave]

I didn't mean to come off so defensive either InquisitorAffe

I'd hate to stifle discussion and I do understand your point but:
did think tactica to begin with, but the problem with them is that they are often too large for a newer player to easily be able to digest and take in everything he may want.
posted by Phoenix is what I meant to get at.

I must have read the Tau battlesuit tactica half a dozen times and I still don't really know which direction to take.
I discovered an Imperial guard tactica today for the first time on here which highlight lots of things I was doing wrong in my own list, (its my second army and dont really play it anymore) but has given me food for thought.
Thats great, that the purpose of these forums and tacticas, but they throw a lot of information at you which is difficult to take in, at least until you've played a couple of games. Read the rules all you want, but you only get a decent understanding of something after you've played a few games, by which time you've spent a bit of money that could have been better spent.

Maybe not even army lists, may be just a core force.
Like 'if you have a chaplain lead assault squad, a 8 man 4 missile launcher devastator squad and a land speeder tornado you won't go far wrong in a coverall force' (I think cheredanine had/has that as his sig or similar)
What I mean is you wouldn't have a scout squad or land raider as the core of your space marine army - but you could quickly build a fully workable force around the aforementioned HQ, fast attack and heavy support.
But what of Tau? Do you build around firewarriors or battlesuits? Guardians or aspects warriors in eldar?
You could then incorporate a tactica within that list (getting a bit waffley now, I apologise)

Just a balanced, basic, coverall, unthemed but not unbeatable list to set new folk on their way.

[Zarahemna]

The thing about armies is that although the list is important, how you play is pretty vital too. People are individuals, I think that I am pretty successful as a gamer, but I don't use those "you should use these units" that you mentioned. Sure I can see the benefits of using them but I want to play the game my own way.

The best way to start any army is buy the stuff that you want to buy and then play with that. If you love the Landraider tank why not use one? The last thing anyone wants is to not use the stuff you like because others think it is rubbish. The game revolves around chance through the medium of dice rolling so although you can swing probability in your favour anyone can win a particular game.

All you really need are the general principles.

1 - Take enough bodies for the size of the game (eg no 15 man 2000 point armies.)
2 - Ensure you have some anti-armour/ high toughness weapons (3+ units at 2000 points say)
3 - Ensure you have some anti-horde (Everyone needs some firepower...)
4 - Ensure you have some units that can take objectives.
5 - Enjoy yourself.

If you roughly follow the above principles then it is merely a case of building the army that you would like to play. For instance lesser daemons are pretty unpopular at the moment. But they make up 25% of my Chaos Space Marine amry because I had some cool conversion ideas and wanted to build and paint them. There aren't any units in the game that are useless, you literally can't screw up, so why worry about it all the time.

Stick something together and then ask for comments if you like, but remember that the vast majority of online commentary is focused on tournament style effectiveness. MOst players should look out for useful tips but shouldn't follow every principle they read online if it conflicts with their playing style or stops them using the units that they want to use. Take my Tau army for instance I have 10 piranhas with underslung twin Seeker Missiles. Jump on the Tau forum and ask how many players think that is a good idea.

Still works for me though...