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  1. #1
    I am a free man! number6's Avatar
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    786 (x8)

    2250 pts: Old Skaven Player Returns for 8th Edition Fun

    Really old hands on this board might remember me posting here from waaaay back near the end of 6th edition and at the beginning of 7th edition. Skaven was my first foray into GW games. While I loved the Skaven themselves (still do!), I ended up really disliking Fantasy and switched into 40K. My experience with 40K couldn't have been more different from that with Fantasy. It's been nothing but fun, win or lose, while Fantasy just annoyed me no matter how hard I tried.

    However, a new league is starting up at my FLGS, and most of the players are my 40K friends. The Skaven have a new army book and fantastic minis, and the positive buzz for 8th edition has also piqued my interest, so I think I'm going to give Fantasy another go.

    However, the nuances of the new army book and 8th edition are beyond my ken. I haven't played a single game for about three years. We'll be playing in an escalation league (fortunately!), but the ultimate goal is to have armies at 2250 pts (which appears to be a common tournament setting?). Here's my first go at such a list. Comments and criticisms more than welcome!

    Lords (215 pts, 9.6%)
    [215 pts] Queek Headtaker

    Heroes (531 pts, 23.6%)
    [282 pts] Plague Priest, add'l hand weapon, Shadow Magic Trinket, Plague Furnace
    [150 pts] Warlock Engineer, lvl 2, Foul Pendant, Warp Energy Condenser
    [99 pts] Chieftain, great weapon, Battle Standard, Banner of the Under Empire

    Core (587 pts, 26.1%)
    [225 pts] 30 Clanrats, spears, shields, full command, Doom-flayer
    [181 pts] 13 Stormvermin, full command, Poisoned Wind Mortar
    [181 pts] 13 Stormvermin, full command, Poisoned Wind Mortar

    Special (586 pts, 26.0%)
    [300 pts] 35 Plague Monks, full command, Plague Banner
    [136 pts] 8 Gutter Runners, poisoned attacks
    [150 pts] 7 Warplock Jezzails, sharpshooters

    Rare (330 pts, 14.7%)
    [150 pts] Doomwheel
    [90 pts] Warp Lightning Cannon
    [90 pts] Warp Lightning Cannon

    Total: 2249 pts

    The plague monks are deployed as a 5-rank Horde. I would join Queek, the Engineer, and the Cheiftain to the Clanrats and probably deploy them 5-6 wide for a LD-rerolling, hopefully steadfast unit. Both of these units should be quite killy; there's very little Queek can't take care of all by himself it seems from the stats. And the model for him is pure awesomesauce. I might also deploy the Engineer in one of the Stormvermin units instead. (??)

    The small Stormvermin units are there just as much for the mortars as for little units I can hopefully arrange to push on to flank charges. (Plus it was fun to set them at 13 models each. )

    I would mostly "sneaky infiltrate" the gutter runners; probably the best rule upgrade in the entire army book since the previous version. I lost my gutters so easily under the old rules. Now that Scout is both better and they have Sneaky Infiltration, using them as warmachine hunters is actually feasible like I always wanted!

    The Doomwheel is just for kicks. Damn cool model. I initially wanted a pair of them, one for each flank, but ran out of points fast. Maybe if/when the army gets built up to 2500+.

    Anyway, the hope was that I built an army that can actually do damage in close combat yet has decent enough shooting to hurt the monsters that (at least used to) spell doom for my old Skaven army. I can tell you right now though that I am going to miss the old "Life Is Cheap" rule.

    Last edited by number6; January 21st, 2011 at 19:15.
    ninjabackhand: point and click, again, really? even after i give you an military term "shock tactic" you still call it point and click.
    RIP Warhammer 40,000: 21 Sep 1998 - 24 May 2014

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  3. #2
    Senior Member stayscrunchyinmilk's Avatar
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    370 (x8)

    Yep - I did raise a eyebrow at the 13 stormvermin and roll a coulpe of eyes at this and that, but if you're happy, you're happy (please change the BSB great weapon for a shield - i shoved a guide up on the skaven forum as to why)

    I would .. well i would scrap alot of the little piddly units that won't stand toe to toe in combat and replace them with blocks of bigger better combat troops.
    I can see the 40k shooting match mentality there, but I'd drop:
    Prob the doomwheel
    The Jezzails

    and stock up on slaves /' make all your core bigger (30 minimum - including stormvermin! one of them and 2x clanrats of 30-40 if not more!)

  4. #3
    Member Meatfoot9's Avatar
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    I have to agree. Ranks = Win with the new 8th edition rules. I would bump those Vermin units up to at least 20-25.

    Drop a few jezzails, maybe the whole unit, but depends on your play style. I've heard many players have not had much luck with them.

    Give the under empire banner to one of your Vermin units, as you dont particularly want to loose your BSB in a combat. and give the Storm banner to him. I would probably run Queek with one of your vermin units, but thats kind of up to you.

    If you want to do some damage, look into the Hell Pit Abom.

    I personally would up the Gutter runners to 10, as they more then likely wont be in range of your BSB, and only a few casualties could cause them to flee off the board. Also, look into slings. They're great with poison.

    Just my two cents. I hope you enjoy the 8th edition rules more. I know i do, although i loved 7th edition as well. Some people cant get into it, just like some people cant get into 40k. =D

    I hope you crush your league and help Spread the word of The Great Horned Rat

  5. #4
    I am a free man! number6's Avatar
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    786 (x8)

    Thank you for the comments.

    I admit to being surprised at how little respect the Skaven shooting options have. From my previous experience, shooting was the only thing that ever kept me in games. I always understood the theory behind swarm combat resolution ... but either I did it wrong or it just wasn't all that. My rats always got chopped down sooooo badly that even denying rank bonus and coming in on flanks I would still lose by 1 or 2 ... or even more in particularly brutal smackdowns.

    My intention with the list was to deploy TWO honest-to-God hammer units that also were unlikely to be fleeing from combat. (Again, I can't count how many games I lost on turn 3 just because one unit decided to break from combat and then half my army ran away.) And then support those killy units with shootiness to try and thin down potential targets so that being Steadfast or Unbreakable shouldn't even matter that much. Just break through on the first go! And if they did get stuck, have a couple of units around that could also be tossed in to try and finish the deal, shoot at everything else.

    Bad theory?

    And is the Doomwheel really that bad? The Warp Lightning seems like it'd be worth it right there. I imagine deploying it wide and trying to sweep in on the flank of enemy screens, breaking them down, and then continuing on to the next target(s) on its flank, probably about the time my "killy" units were stuck in. Also a flawed approach?

    Nevertheless, your criticisms of my Core choices appear spot on. I kept the same basic structure to the list, but I think rearranging the Core -- and reoutfitting the Chieftain -- does indeed improve the list considerably. Agreed?

    Lords (215 pts, 9.6%)
    [215 pts] Queek Headtaker

    Heroes (532 pts, 23.6%)
    [282 pts] Plague Priest, add'l hand weapon, Shadow Magic Trinket, Plague Furnace
    [150 pts] Warlock Engineer, lvl 2, Foul Pendant, Warp Energy Condenser
    [100 pts] Chieftain, Battle Standard, Sword of Might, Enchanted Shield

    Core (703 pts, 31.2%)
    [333 pts] 28 Stormvermin, Queek bodyguard, full command
    [185 pts] 20 Clanrats, spears, shields, full command, Poisoned Wind Mortar
    [185 pts] 20 Clanrats, spears, shields, full command, Poisoned Wind Mortar

    Special (470 pts, 20.9%)
    [221 pts] 28 Plague Monks, full command
    [119 pts] 7 Gutter Runners, poisoned attacks
    [130 pts] 6 Warplock Jezzails, sharpshooters

    Rare (330 pts, 14.7%)
    [150 pts] Doomwheel
    [90 pts] Warp Lightning Cannon
    [90 pts] Warp Lightning Cannon

    Total: 2250 pts

    The only thing I'm not really sure about the is Queek bodyguard upgrades for the Stormvermin. I love the idea of having an entire unit of S5 attacks that will be hitting most foes on 3s ... but is it overkill?

    Thanks again. Keep it coming.
    ninjabackhand: point and click, again, really? even after i give you an military term "shock tactic" you still call it point and click.
    RIP Warhammer 40,000: 21 Sep 1998 - 24 May 2014

  6. #5
    Senior Member stayscrunchyinmilk's Avatar
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    370 (x8)

    That's a lot better, i really would bump those clanrats up - there is no way in round 1 of combat you won't just lose at least one clanrat, denying yourself 1 LD and 1 Combat res. (I also strongly recommend hw & shield for the save vs spear - less cost, more save. With 40+ yopu can do a horde - if anything as you have made the units join the units together and have a block of 40 ish - 4 ranks fight with spears, Your two hammers are the Stormvermin and plague monks (monks a bit more fragile, but hey)

    It's a definate improvement, but don't go copying your opponents style with his unit deployment - you want to be 6-7 wide if not 10 - 12 (12 for bigger games) really. Well, that's just me.
    He puts down a 5 wide unit? Put down a 6-7 wide opposite with more ranks. repeat.

  7. #6
    Member Meatfoot9's Avatar
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    The list looks much better. I personally love the doomwheel, but make sure you have a throw away unit next to it until it gets close to the enemy. you dont want it zapping the tails off your vermin unit. I would bump up the clanrats by at least 5 - 10 more. In 8th edition, as long as you outrank your enemy, you are steadfast. And Skaven can almost ALWAYS outrank an enemy. Combined with your BSB, your units should not be fleeing, even in they loose combat. Swamp em with ranks, flank em, chew through em. I'd have your furnace hold your center personally. Vermin and rats on the flank. And Queeks guys are not overkill. you're paying for them. I personally dont like characters and prefer to build my own lords and what not, so i have no experiance with them.

    One more thing, i'd drop the foul pendant from your warlock, he probably wont need it, stick him in a clanrat unit or have him running around behind your lines, he should be fine. I'd give the pendant to your BSB, and not put him in combat unless you have to. You dont want to loose this guy. Also, slings are wonderful on gutter runners and their poison.

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  9. #7
    I am a free man! number6's Avatar
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    786 (x8)

    Again, thanks for the comments!

    What I'm hearing is that the basic list structure is sound, but the clanrats should be bigger.

    Honestly, the only reason they exist is to get me poisoned wind mortars. I'd use slaves if I could -- and may still do that instead. I.e., multiple slave units with slings instead of clanrats with weapon teams. But weapons teams are cooler , and clanrats should make for better flank attackers than slaves, too.

    That is, I consider them more or less expendable. They'll always be near the general, so their LD should be more or less OK, even with the loss of a couple of ranks (Queek is LD 8!). However, with only 20 models -- and no characters -- I don't believe most folks will believe them to be much of a threat. Truly, they aren't! So I expect them to glide under the radar most of the time while the hammer units, Doomwheel, gutter runners, even Cannons attract more attention.

    I could be wrong. Part of what informs my build here is experience with 40K tactics and use of MSU armies. It may turn out that it won't translate well into Fantasy and I'll get my ass handed to me! But if that turns out to be the case, points are easy to recover from this list to beef up the clanrats ... and then do even more beyond that. Simply dropping the Queek upgrades from the stormvermin gives me 112 pts more to toy with, more than enough to take on your recommendations and then do even more.

    So thanks again. Your advice has really helped. I like the structure of the list, and know what I need to do -- and how to do it -- if it falls short of expectations.
    ninjabackhand: point and click, again, really? even after i give you an military term "shock tactic" you still call it point and click.
    RIP Warhammer 40,000: 21 Sep 1998 - 24 May 2014

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    Member Meatfoot9's Avatar
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    Your strategy is sound. Let us know how it works out for you. I myself cry everytime I need to take a panic test, so i play defensively and take advantage of any leadership rule i can. But i can also see how your list works. Just dont put your clanrats in a straight fight by themselves, they (probably) wont win!

  11. #9
    Senior Member stayscrunchyinmilk's Avatar
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    370 (x8)

    yep, keep us informed (oh, any you missed giving Stormvermin a magical banners) - I suggest a war banner (you give away nothing to the opponent but think of it this way - that's a extra rank in combat res.
    I think as a 40k player the horror of panic tests hasn't sunk in. Tell us about the games!
    (It'll be like watching a war film as you hear the guys thoughts getting grittier and turning into a killing machine)
    Start:
    "Well lets go round farmer gamjee's house and pick up some nice provisions for our trip"
    End:
    "I laugh with contempt at the Empire man-things for even contemplating they can stand in front of my horde as we rampage through their city, burning and looting at will, yes-yes"

  12. #10
    I am a free man! number6's Avatar
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    786 (x8)

    Heh. I promise to return with reports of my loss-- er, I mean, glorious victories! As I said, this army list represents the final endpoint of an escalation league. As it's currently envisioned, we start at 750 pts and will end at 2250 pts, with 500 pt jumps after every two games. I just needed to get that final list envisioned so I can start buying units up. It'll be a couple of months before we actually begin, so don't be surprised if I disappear for several weeks before coming back.

    As for the magic banner: I didn't forget! (And I love the War Banner, too!) I just ... ran out of points. As I said, the first order of business should it come to tweaking will be to drop the Queek bodyguard upgrades and use 'em appropriately.

    Now, on to the kill-kill!
    ninjabackhand: point and click, again, really? even after i give you an military term "shock tactic" you still call it point and click.
    RIP Warhammer 40,000: 21 Sep 1998 - 24 May 2014

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