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I'm a new skaven player, and i love this army. But i got some difficulties to beat Tomb King ( i don't play with Tempest of Chaos rules).
When Tomb King is making an offensive list, i win easy, but when he do defense, like 2 skull thrower, i cannot win, even with cheasy lists.
He put : 2 skull thrower, 2*3 flying unit, 20 skeleton with shield and armor, 20 tomb guardian, 1 scorpion, 10 skeleton archers,5 light cavalry, and 4 chariots.
Generally, he got a prince in a chariot, a king in the skeleton shileded, and 2 lich which move in archers and guardians.
In order to face this, i make 3*25 clanrats, 3*25 slaves, 2*8 jezzails, 1 warplightning canon,2 * 7 gutter runner with poisoned weapon and borrowed, 2*9 night runner with weapon+,2 rats swarm, one assassin with warp shuriken, 2 technomages witch a scroll each, and one with the deamon artifact, and a prophet with the warp talisman (4+ ward).
Since i play Skaven, i never played first ( +1 for start for the opponent, always,is silly).
It happens all the time like this : i loose the first turn, my opponent put his skull thrower in back of the table so i cant borrow my gutter behind. Then he puts archers near the front, in order to see with skull thrower and to defend with archers. He puts skeletton and guardian on each side, then his chariots in a flank.
First turn : he is a perfect estimating player, he can hit everything with his skull thrower, just the disperse die can help me. But generally, he hit in the center of a clanrat troop and make 9 dead. If i flee, assuming he hit clanrats near jezzail, the jezzail will flee ( i have not enough luck, i can miss test with 10 cd at critical points).
So with 2 skull thrower, he can remove two units easily. I dispel his magic phase for prevent skull thrower to hit, but that (skull thrower) is damned imba for the cost.
Then he moves his chariots and his vulture in order to be able to charge next turn.
And then it is my turn : i focus the chariots with jezzail and canon : my canon does shit everytime (str 2, missfire...allways), and jezzail kill one chariot. Sometimes i can throw shuriken with the assassin and kill an other chariot.
Then i try to focus chariots in magic phase, but my opponent uses scroll and i do nothing.
I decided to borrow gutter in front of archers in order to try to kill them then engage skull thrower. But the scorpion is near, and if i miss any roll i am in difficulty.
And then, chariots are not dead, even 2 chariots with prince are powerfull, so he can try to beat anything, or just back a bit for beeing in range of liches (and so liches could heal).
Then his vultures go near, blocking marches or try to focus warplight canon and jezzail.
I cant protect the 2*8jezzail and the canon AND counter his march blocking in the same times, generally i put swarm in front of my jezzail and the canon stuck to an obstacle.
the 9 night runners can beat vultures, if i do not fail fear test, which happens more than half the time.
Cause of them and chariots, i need in total 3-4 turn to be in melee, at this moment skull thrower killed more than half of my army, and he lost vultures and 1-2 chariots. When i come in melee i dont have enough troops for flanking, so with the king he crush me, easy.
Gutter runners always fail their role, when they dont die cause of archers and scorpion.
I wrote a tomb king tactica yes, i know ^^.
But how can i face this ?
I try frenzy unit for no flee, the bell, all the things and i dont find how to face.
Dice god is not with me, maybe with other strategy this could change...
Can someone help me ?
I think that the biggest problem is charriot, but i will not put 2 warp cannon wich missfire all the time, and i will not put 40 jezzail (one hit from a skull thrower, and bye bye).
Life is cheap !
Tunneling Teams, A lot of Warp Cannons, Grey Seer, and Assasins.
Tunneling teams can tunnel near the skull catapults. Multiple Warp Cannons will fire and hopefully take out the skull catapults, Grey Seer/Assasin combo will work well, just skitterleap the assasin next to the catapult, get Cloak of Shadows for the Assasin, the most powerful protection against range. Also, get a Storm Banner, it will work well if the Cloak doesn't work.
This is only to take out the catapults. Youre on your own for the rest.
"What is Mercy? Does it taste Nice?" Hive Tyrant on Reth V
"Kill-kill! Death to the Enemies of the Horned Rat!" Warlord Bweekq at the Battle of Hrad
Generally, he got this :
He puts his two stone thrower on a hill, then he stuck a skeleton unit and a tomb guard unit at the right and the left of the two stone thrower.Then he put archers at the end of the hill. So throwers are totally circled, i cant put even one model.
Behind skull thrower there is nothing, stuck on the table.
Because we don't randomize terran, each one take an element and put it where he wants, i got 3 hills,4 forest, 1 structure and 3 others things (barriers, stone). He allways take hills and put it into deployment zone.
I have not enough space to put tunneling team ! Btw, what happen if i am forced to engage an ennemy and i cant put the team ? When it happens i roll a dispers die and i charge the first unit i can.
Grey seer/assassin, well, if i had no space, it is the same thing.
Strom banner is pretty cool, but since the errata, even magical weapon need 4+, and so jezzail and warp cannon will not be able to kill chariots.
And remember that skeleton needs allways 5+, storm banner will just prevent some skull throw.
For finish, i dont trust in warp cannon, i'm going to put them in trash, in 6 games with 1 or 2 warpcannon i shot 14 times in total : one in str 6, one with str 8, 8 missfire exploding, and 4 with str 2...
But, if i hit the stone thrower with a str 8 or 10, ok i kill the thrower, but then he will do all for raise it, and i have not enough dispel dices or scroll to totally abort his magic phase.
My last game was a bit better : i put 18 jezzails wich own chariots, i put tunneling in front of his hierophant, but i got dramatically bad luck, three times i put the hierophant at 1 life. My magic kill the archers,2 swarms,2 chariots and half of the basic skeletons (and one of my caster).
If dice god could be with me, one time :/ My warp cannon did shit as usual,doing a str 2 shot in 3 vultures which charged my jezzail, and then explode when i wanted to shot an alone king. And 3 times on 4+ for kill the hierophant, i missed all. Fail.
Last edited by ConanLeBarbare; August 27th, 2008 at 09:38.
Skaven is tough when you roll poorly, this happens to me too, it's really terrible when you bring this awesome unit and it just fails and takes itself out of the battle. If you then avoid these units, your are losing so much of the power of the army, the trick is to keep taking them, and just not think about it, if they blow up again, oh well, if they hit, they usually hit hard.
As far as your specific situation, I have a few things to say.
Skitterleap - The first is that while skitterleaping is nice, it's often negated by people who are afraid of it, it's not a reliable strategy.
Tunneling Teams - If a tunneling team (after scattering) appears directly on a unit, it will count as charging that unit. There needs to be at least an inch between his units during deployment, I'm not sure quite how movement works after that, but like I said, this can cause a charge, re-read through the rules on this, as tunneling teams could be very help for this.
Warp lightning - Incredible warp lightning. Though it can be extremely frustrating when you hit yourself with this spell, strength 5 hits are epic. If you get a gray seer and a warlock engineer with the storm daemon, that is a possible 5d6 str 5 hits against those catapults. Since they are on a hill you should always have sight of them, and if you are playing 4'x6', you will most likely reach them on your first turn.
Giant mass of units on the hill - He is clearly biasing his army to horde up on the hill, take advantage of this any way you can, vermintide, warp lightning cannon, and plague are all options which might help. However, if there are only 3 units next to 2 catapults, it doesn't sound like he could really completely cover them.
Fear/panic - the panic tests of the catapults and the fear tests that he has on all his guys are deadly, but this means that they are higher point costs for lower skills. This means that immune to psychology is very effective against them, especially in the form of frenzy. Taking plague monks and censer bearers would be a very good idea, though you will need to keep the censer bearers away from those 5+ archers. Plague monks will be absolutely invaluable to you, I am surprised you have completely overlooked this unit! No matter how many shooting wounds they take, they will not panic, and they are very hard hitting versus blocks of undead.
To add to the above, death frenzy is the skaven spell which can give frenzy to any unit, if you get this on a seer you will definitely need to consider where it is needed most to protect from those panic checks. Consider this, though, as well, a unit of 25 frenzied slaves can rival the majority of the units up on that hill, the skeleton archers and warriors, and definitely the warmachines.
Because of the catapults, always remember to split your units apart as much as possible to avoid giving him juicy targets - areas where he can pick a spot and know that no matter how the skull scatters, it will hit something. Of course, to some extent, you will need to keep your units together to combine in combat.
If you have any questions on what I've said or wanted a more specific answer to anything please let me know. With all that said, 2 screaming catapults is borderline cheesy against a low leadership, high troop count army like skaven. Your opponent sounds like he enjoys playing WAAC, knowing that he will always get to place hills in his deployment zone. If I were you, I would suggest a more random method of terrain placement, though he sounds like the type of player that might not enjoy a more even battle. Personally, if someone kept taking the same list like that against me, always putting hills in his deployment and doing the same strategy, as much as it is correctly played, and works by the rules you two have agreed too, I would probably look for different people to play against. Before you do that, I would say definitely look into the tips above, especially about clan pestilens and tunneling teams.
I would go for 2-3 plauge monk units, 3 living testla coils (aka. warlock engineers) grey seer, 2-3 warp lightning and for the horned rats sake lots of ratling guns and warpfire throwers. (personally I don´t like jezzails). These are all risky wepons, but some of them are bound to work, especially warp lightning (the spell) is deadly.
Sure, you dont have any combat characters, but with little of his army remaining you can just overwhelm them with numbers (especially monks). Oh, and try to lure your opponent into thinking that you will destroy him using skitterleap, many players are sooo afraid of that spell. This leavs even more room for sapping as he uses many dispell dice against that.
I found a solution ! My real problem was the overpowered chariot unit, but i tested to use the str 10 weapon on a lord. I put the lord into a slave unit with slave champion and i run in the chariot. If he charges, i can even hit with my lord, and if he want a duel i accept with champion slave. So my lord destroy some chariots, wich can kill the unit or make it useless. So he fears, he cannot move his chariots and jezzail / warp cannon hit the chariot (in case of too much 1 or 2 at the beginning of my turn).
One lord with this str10 weapon and 3 engineers, i think it is enough good
If your having problems vs a defensive army build your own.
Its really simple if you think about it as your only playing 1 off games. Take 2 pieces of wooded terrain and plop them 1 inch apart just on the edge of your deployment zone. Declare them as woods. Even if his catapult is on a hill it still cannot see over the trees. Deploy your ENTIRE army behind the woods.
Put your warplightning cannons in the woods but more than 2 inches in. He cannot target past the woods with the catepults and cannot target your cannons because they are more than 2 inches in. Just fire at his catapults and destroy them. Also take 2 units of gutter runners, tunnell them, only making them 5 strong with poisen HW and tunnell is 85 pts.
Hide army, make him come to you, chariots crashing through woods is fine as they will destroy themselves. And the flying carrion cannot charge or land in the woods.
Kill the catapults= +220 VPs. kill something else you get a win on VPs. Don't cast magic unless you have to and play point denial. You will win on VPs. Its a tournment players win. Not pretty, sometimes not fun, but it teaches people to stop building all defensive lists and play more fun.
40K-Beakies(9-14-4),Guard(4-7-2),Orks(34-12-11). FANTASY-Dwarves(15-6-7),Beasts (14-14-1), Skaven (17-17-10) DoC (6-1-2). CYGNAR (28-15-1)