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Warp Lightning Cannon
So a small amount of time has passed now, games have been played, lists have been tested and tactics employed, all in the name of 8th edition (and the under empire).
I would like to bring some life back to the skaven forum. What experiences have you had so far with 8th edition. What new tactics have you been impressed with and what has underperformed for you? With most other armies changing up the play style and a shift from whats considered "top tier", have you found that you have needed to adapt you play style in any way to combat your foul enemies?
One thing that I have begun to swear by with Skaven is slaves. Like a lot of other players I have GREATLY increased the number I run in my armies but more and more I have found that I'm not using them as a defensive unit or even a shield but rather play-testing as a serious offensive unit. With a horde formation you are putting out a whopping 30 attacks a turn (40 with spears on the second round), with a good chance of striking first, you can put some serious pain on an opponent.
Weapon Skill 2? Not much of an issues for me in my games so far, since I'm not putting them up against elite units (unless they are trying to hold them) they almost always hit on 4, just like they would if they were clan rats (though there are some exception as always).
As for the Leadership, since I don't have them close to my general all the time, a tactic I have employed is throwing a naked warlock engineer in there to babysit them. Giving them LD 5 which is bumped to 8 with S.I.N. And at the cost of only 15 points it hardly even makes a dent.
Some units I'm still on the fence for are Plague Catapults and Rat Ogres. The Catapults have done little to nothing every game (though don't get me wrong I REALLY want them to work). The Rat Ogres have not even gotten close to making there points back but I'm not writing them off yet.
What about you, what have you enjoyed about 8th edition so far?
I'm a little new to both Fantasy and Skaven, and I had a really shaky start with Skaven, but I've really begun to like them. I've had particular success with the Warp Lightning Cannon, although it's totally unreliable, due to the units you are going after it only needs one good hit to earn its points back and not to mention, turn a game. I've also had good success with the Hell Pit Abomination, the addition of the Thunderstomp attack really helps it negate the marginality of some of its attack modes.
I've tended to find Stormvermin disappointing, they are easy to kill and seem to have a lower damage output than you would expect of them. However I did have a really good experience with Queek's SV, and I am thinking of running them with the Storm Banner and possibly magic resistance 2, just to help get them across the board. Another disappointing unit for me has been weapon teams, my main opponents tend to have enough shooting to selectively destroy them before they have any real impact in a game (other than the Poisoned Wind Mortar, which I just wasn't impressed with for the points), and I am thinking now about running a couple of Doom Flayers, hiding them until I am close enough to charge and just using them to help out in the more marginal combats, not to mention going after annoying scouts and cheap shooting units with little or no SCR.
The other issue I have with slaves is that my main opponent is a Dark Elf player, so they tend to be hitting on 5s for me unfortunately, so in the end I decided to go for Clanrats over them. I would consider going back to slaves, but as I'm using Queek right now my General is a liability and I often loose him! Plus the fact I am already low on standards accross the army for the breaking point mission.
I've just started Skaven, but I know Skaven players and they swear by Slaves. Either give them a cheap warlock or keep them within range of the general (not so difficult if they're mounted in a screaming bell or plague furnace), and they're rock solid. Queek's stormvermin are also impressive, although that's the only way I'd use Stormvermin. Clan rats are really just for the extra special weapons and guarding flanks.
One of my friends use plenty of giant rats and plague monks, and swears by both. The giant rats seem pretty good, and the plague monks just seem to effortlessly murder their way across the board.
No poison wind globadiers? They seem pretty good to me, especially when up against tougher opponents.
"Any job worth doing, is worth doing with a powerklaw."
Sorry, I didn't add the globadiers into the poll because I didn't want to make it to long but I was split down the middle on including them or not. I'm with you though, I'm not the biggest fan of stormvermin, to much points for what they do (at least in the skaven world). But Plague monks! I have had LOTS of success with the monks, sure sometimes they get lead around like a puppy due to frenzy but once they reach a target they chew right through them.
But after all that's said and done, I think my favorite unit in general would be the Plague Furnace, it never seems to disappoint me, only every once in a while when it falls to mass cannon fire.
ok just out of curiosty why would you think plague monks are better than storm vermin? the monks are only I3 yeah the attacks are amazing if you get into combat but chances are they will be shot to bits, and with them recieving no save what-so ever your going to need to take a boatload just to get there and once they get there your pretty much attacking alot of things last. Where-as the storm vermin are I5 and str4 attacks with halberts they are more likely to see combat and actually have a save oh and i nearlly forgot the ws4 aswell... im not looking to argue but i just want someone to tell me why they prefer plague monks as i have a boat load and would like to maybe use them one day lol
Slaves are the best unit in the army, and in my opinion possibly the game. They're hyper cheap and with Steadfast, a BSB and Skaven Leadership, I've never had a unit break in over 20+ games. Being able to shoot/cast into combat is a bonus, the big deal is tarpitting ANY unit in the game for at least 3 turns (1.5 game turns), usually far more. Than you can get a unit in the flank anytime you want, it's up to you and when you do, your opponent can never turn to face it unless the Slaves break. Devastating with a HPA or Rat Ogres.
Gutter Runners have also been amazing for me. Poison and Slings says average dice kills a warmachine in one Shooting Phase, or at least 3 wounds on missile troops. Scouts gets them where you need them but even against a turtle you can use their special deployment, there's simply no way to stop them short of committing units.
Weapon Teams have been disappointing for me personally. Fire Throwers get 1-2 shots usually and are a pretty big target for armies with a throwaway magic spell, or a small archer unit. This can be argued as good but it leads to the Thrower dying a lot, so it can't be relied upon. The Mortar just doesn't do enough damage unless the troops are incredibly expensive, which basically means Heavy Cavalry, and we all know those are rarer and rarer.
I do see your point about Slaves, Prince of Excess, for the points difference I can see how there is little benefit to Clanrats, and you can put down a 50 man unit for almost nothing! That having been said, I do still disagree with Murdoch when he says they can be run independantly with a Warlock Engineer. If I were to face a similar unit I know I would be directing the maximum possible attacks I could against the Warlock Engineer every turn, Warpstone Armour helps protect him against basic troops to an extent but it is still unreliable. But like I say, this is a minor point as long as you aren't silly with your general.
I also agree with your judgement of weapon teams, I have personally found them pretty disapointing too, in fact, in my latest lists I've sacrificed most of my shooting to get some extra protection from the Storm Banner. I haven't tried Doom Flayers out yet but I can't see they will impress enough to influence my decision when it comes to Slaves vs. Clanrats.
I totally agree with you about Gutter Runners, they are a great unit! It honestly hadn't ocurred to me to give them Poisoned Attacks, I looked at the price and dismissed them, but you are right, they do have a good chance against War Machines if they take them, that's something interesting for me to consider.
They did me proud again tonight. Killed 5 Marauder Horsemen in one game, killed a ton of Glade Guard and Wardancers in another and killed 2 Cannon, 15 Glade Guard and a Lvl3 Spellweaver in the last. They have no bad matchups, worst they did was my game against Chaos because he had so many hard units, so I went for the easy points.
Hmm... actually, that's not too bad an idea, the throwing a naked warlock engineer into a slave mob. I don't know about the survivability of a reduced sized mob but I can see the Ld 5 being helpful if you don't wish to have as many slaves in the same unit. The way I see it, you could potentially reduce the unit size by 3 ranks and still maintain Ld 10 after strength in numbers.
However, I would not count on the warlock to independently run the mob by himself. I'd rather keep a BSB near them.
Necrons W68-D13-L10 (3rd edition codex)
Necrons W3-D1-L1 (latest codex)
Skaven still being assembled
Yeah a Warlock would die quickly, even with armor. A BSB and wise placement of the General makes it pretty easy to keep the Slaves brave, especially if they're long units.