Who suffers the most from the new space marine?

[je_suis_roux]

Hi,

First off, I should have posted this post with the released of the codex and not before.I also should of ask the question: who is annoyed the more from the new space marine codex?

If we leave the rules aside, I am a DE player and when I see codex with 144 pages while mine has 48 pages, it annoys me a bit.

I think chaos should suffer more from the new space marine codex and not just because of the rules. What did the chaos get in their new codex? Not much except the Lash, vindicator and a new special character.Their new codex killed the fluff of the legions (khorne, nurgle etc.) , Iron legion, World bearer, Night lords etc. This codex is very basic and unappealing.

What will the space marine gain with their new codex. New versions of land speeder, Land raider, dreadnought, 8 new special characters, two new army special rule, new rules for veterans and LOD. I think that the codex gives birth to chapters that never really had specific rules or commander such as salamander, crimson fist , white scar etc. This codex is very complex and interesting.

Leaving rules aside for now, I believe that the chaos space marine codex fluff was destroyed while the space marine fluff got boosted and that would get me really annoyed if I was a chaos player. My brother took a break of warhammer 40k because the chaos codex killed his night lord army also because the new space marine codex. I will probably use his chaos army but play with the space marine rules.

That is my view of things.

[Steel_Legianaire]

I agree with je_suis_roux concerning just the fact that SM are getting better opportunities to build unique armies, while others are get nerfed(Chaos), or in the case of DE (my WIP) getting completly neglected.

Also JRD4 concerning a handicap for younger kids playing vanilla marines, honestly im beginning to think they need it. Lately I haven't had one good game against marines, it hasn't been a matter of will I win, its how bad. When you lose less models playing gunline guard against marines, they are doing something wrong. It may just be the kids in my area, but its sad.

There are the competitive SM players, but most are using specific chapters (BA, DA, haven't seen BT in a while, but they are amongst them). Ok my rant on substandard SM players is over.

As far as all the special rules, it doesn't really matter all that much because with 5th ed, troops are uber important, and all that kewl stuff won't win them games, sure it could make it harder for you to do so, but all the special characters, cool tanks, and whatnot can't undo the fact that its the footslogging grunts who will win the games. My case in point, one of the kids I've played recently has 3 troop choices in a 2000 pt list, and one is a squad of five scouts w/ HB and a shotty. He loads up on assault squads, nid hunters, Devs, dreds, a pred etc, but a few battle cannon shots pretty much ensure he isn't going to hold any objectives, and therefore loses.

[Hisop-1]

i have heard that allot of sm players are sub standard but then there are many good ones but they do all seem to specialize i play vanilla marines atm and although i am young it doesn't mean i play less well i personally have in a 750 point army have 2 tactical squads (10 man) and a 10 man scout squad backed with some devastators and a master this gives me allot of scoring potential and protection for my heavy weapons in my dev squad.

i think when inexperienced people play space marines all the cool veteran squads and tanks obscure what the space marines are suppose to be about, im sure any sm veterans will agree that it is nice to have 5 different veteran choices a billion different tanks and loads of cool leaders but its the good old tac squad that is by far the most important component.

Hisop

[stars and bars]

what is this supposed new rule to break off combat?

[BDJV]

As a Space Wolf player I'll be unaffected negatively by the new Marine dex. In fact being as my mindex takes a lot of choices from the SM dex I'll be getting a slight buff.

I do feel for the blandised Chaos/DA/BA players. My biggest concern is having multiple sets of stats and rules for the same wargear. It's just not right and will be more confusing.

[Steel_Legianaire]

Originally Posted by Hisop-1

i play vanilla marines atm and although i am young it doesn't mean i play less well i personally have in a 750 point army have 2 tactical squads (10 man) and a 10 man scout squad backed with some devastators and a master this gives me allot of scoring potential and protection for my heavy weapons in my dev squad.

i think when inexperienced people play space marines all the cool veteran squads and tanks obscure what the space marines are suppose to be about, im sure any sm veterans will agree that it is nice to have 5 different veteran choices a billion different tanks and loads of cool leaders but its the good old tac squad that is by far the most important component.

Hisop

I never said that all vanilla players, or all younger kids can't play worth a darn, i said most, and its very evident. Frankly I think most of us at one point have played SM in one fashion or another, and it does appeal to the novice player to have troops better than some armies elites. Its the fundamentals you learn playing marines that you take with you to other armies, or expand upon to make you SM army superior to others. You apparently have grasped the fundamentals of playing SM effectively. You have more points dumped in troops at 750 than I have seen at 2000, and now more than ever, troops win games.

The point being made here is that SM are supposedly getting all this kewl stuff that other similar armies aren't getting(specific SM chapters, DH, and chaos), and not to mention getting attention that other armies like DE or maybe even Space Wolves could use. (I know neither are really uncompetitive, if anything quite the opposite, its just some additional fluff, updates, and possibly something new to spice it up a bit that is needed).

[Mesi]

Eh I'll add my two cents.

Honestly as a primary BA player, I'm both excited and irked about the new Codex. It's not a shy statement in my opinion to say the Marines are getting some fairly nice buffs and new rules. Which is great and needed. But then to turn around and say something like yeah... cept you other marines yeah you don't get the same gear. Or anything else that would put you on par with the new Marines Standard.

It's not like they are some other race. They are marines just as much as Ultras, or any of the other new random chapters you can play. Sorry but when All those chapters get 3+ invulnerable saves with Storm Shields and the DA BA equivs are the sameish price and still get the shaft. Yeah well sorry. No dice. And that's not the only thing. I'm sorry but having different variations of the same wargear across the marine chapters is just a downright foolish thing to do. Confusing for everyone, and its just unbalanced when it's obvious which one is straight up better.

I'll admit I'm a bit miffed at things like Raven Guard getting army wide fleet. Especially being a BA player. Where we're supposed to be the BEST assault Marines in existence. Even in the fluff. Or the fact white scars get Furious Charge... our old Ability. That's just a rant yeah. Sorry don't want to rant but that's part of my irritation.

I think the new dex will be great and fun. I just dislike the fact it's going to almost trivialize the other chapters.

So in conclusion I think the divergent chapters are getting 'hurt' the most. Not so much because they are bad but because their counterpart is getting massive upgrades to the -same- things that all the chapters have. While the other chapters are left in the dust. It's a foolish move on GW's part not to FAQ the armies. Especially since it'll be a long time coming before they ever see a new Dex. (IF BA's ever do.)

Anyway enough of my rantage before it gets prolonged.

I feel the new Dex will be good and balanced. But more or less a slap in the face to the divergent loyalist chapters. I don't feel any other dexs will be hurt. CSM Nids, Eldar they are all still quite fine. Baring DE who need an update perhaps more then anyone. But that's another topic.

[Hisop-1]

i do think that space marines are getting lots of powers but i think that if you look at it a cool new veteran don't mean squat if thats all you've got. i can sea some 1000 point squads with these rules and it is a shame (although quite cool) it is not a wining combination.

i think that space marines aren't getting harder there just getting more variation and considering the amount of sm players there need to be variation.

(my second 2 cents (or pence if your from where i am))

P.S. wow brackets in brackets...

Hisop

(edit)

i used to play ba before i switched to vanillas (my paint scheme allows me to switch between the 2) i think that ba has been hit hard enough already and any changes will be for the good

(edit2)

i think that all marines should get the same wargear unless a specific reason like i don't think legion of the damned should have plasma weapons as they went invented when they first came into being, and some chapters like ba have there own tanks already and don't need all the normal ones.

[Howloutloud]

All I want is games workshop to own up and make all wargear even across the board. I don't mind not having the new units, I play pure Deathwing. I don't mind GW weakening some units to bring them inline.

Heck, I don't mind that if I want to use a Mortis pattern dreadnought I have to have opponents permission, but if a vanilla list wants to take one they can. But Dangit, make it so that all storm shields/power of the machine spirit/land raiders/etc... are the same across the board.

Example: I know that the U.S. Marines and the British special forces are not trained the same. I know that they don't always carry the same equipment when going to war.... BUT AN AK-47 IS AN AK-47 NO MATTER WHAT!

[Steel_Legianaire]

Originally Posted by Howloutloud

BUT AN AK-47 IS AN AK-47 NO MATTER WHAT!

Unless of course its a Games Workshop AK-47 then it might work better for some people.