Who suffers the most from the new space marine?

[Steel_Legianaire]

Originally Posted by Roland Durendal

As for all chapters or armies or whatnot get Orbital Bombardment, that is just ridiculous. Now if they can purchase it like a Heavy Support choice like the Inquisition, fine that makes sense. But to give it to them for free (which is the implied tone of the previous post), that is just dumb. Plain and simple.

I definately agree; If I have to buy a bombardment with my DH army, why should the marines get a minimum of 70pt piece for free, not to mention it not take up a heavy slot in the FOC?

[Amishcellphone]

Orbital Bombardment only comes with the Chapter Master, who provides no benefit to the FOC.

[Durinheart]

As mentioned above, orbital bombardment isn't give to the special characters that effect the FoC which will probably see more use the standard chapter master, also i believe i read somewhere that the orbital bombardment could only be used once on the battlefield?

[Sokhar]

Roland, I'm flattered to see that I was still remembered here despite a long absence. ;-)

[frozencore]

I don't see orbital bombardment as the only big problem so much as the massive points decrease from units like Assault Marines(only 2 points more than a regular marine for a jump pack and an option to buy storm shields for a 3+ invul?), Bikers (who cost as much as a grey knight), etc. and the seemingly over the top special rules. Sure it's a fifth edition codex, but does their have to be such a huge difference in power?

[stayscrunchyinmilk]

Originally Posted by frozencore

I don't see orbital bombardment as the only big problem so much as the massive points decrease from units like Assault Marines(only 2 points more than a regular marine for a jump pack and an option to buy storm shields for a 3+ invul?), Bikers (who cost as much as a grey knight), etc. and the seemingly over the top special rules. Sure it's a fifth edition codex, but does their have to be such a huge difference in power?

Agreed.
P.S. the bpmbardment is a one shot, S10, AP2 extra to your commander, who has lost rites of battle.
Ask this... why would you take a commander when you just need to squeeze a few points here and there and have a uber character? (Twin linked meltas/flamers and master crafted thunder hammers?) or (Infiltrating terminators with furious charge (as has the rest of the army)
Don't worry about commanders, worry about the others.

I am preparing to send my beloved DA codex (even signed by Jervis Johnson) back to GW HQ with a letter politely stating my disappointment, with a sheet attached explaining point for point what the differences are between Dark Angels and Vanilla Marines. I will clearly state how I feel let down, having bought an entire company boxed set, 8 boxes of DA vets, alot of terminators and bikes etc etc, made and lovingly painted them, on the assumption that the DA codex wil not be made redundant so soon after it's release. The Da CODEX was written with 5th ed rules in mind, yet one month after 5th is released it is utterly pointless as a competetive army.

I will however wait for the official release date, to see if they really aren't going to release a FAQ for equipment difference. Paying more for equally equipped troops, (Tac Squads, transports etc) and not having a multitude of special abilities / characters I could deal with, but Identical equipment doing different things (Storm sheild save, Landraider cargo capacity etc) is adding injury to insult.

P.S. I've read the marine codex (In a GW store, with a kind staff member) so yes, alot of the rumors that I dismissed: "let's see if that rumors really real" are actually true.

They're absolutely ripping any consumer trust out of me, and am I going to be motivated, (as I was with my DA army) again? Ther financial cost was massive, let alone the hours painting. I don't enjoy modelling / painting them at the moment, as if I spend four hours painting in a evening I spend four hours looking at my waste of money, putting effort into a army I'm unlikely to enjoy playing. Why spend that time and money, with that risk again?

[kithre]

Assault marines and bikers can't grab table quarters (unless they are counted as troops for whatever reason) so I think a drop in points was a viable thing.

As for teh DA and BA codices, I am pretty sure that GW wouldn't want ti shoot themselves in the foot that far - after all, having different rules for the same wargear is silly in the extreme. I can see that official FAQs and updates will make their way in double-quick time... I agree, if they don;t they will alienate the Angels of Death players (to be honest, they should have not released the updates for these chapters until after Codex SM cm eout for 5th anyway - just doesn't make sense, unless the rules from the 5th ed Codex are already incorporated...)

Oh, and as an aisde, BA and DA actually count ALL of their units as scoring, because Codex rules supercede BGB rules, so imagine if you split all your squads (e.e. 2 Terminator Squads, 3 Tactical Squads, 2 assault squads and 3 devestator squads) to combat squads/ That way you can get 10 scoring units, typically you could get 15 scoring units in a FOC..

So BA Assault Squads are scoring, BA veteran Assault squads are scoring, BA scouts are better than the SM scouts, BA Devestators are scoring, as are Death Company etc etc.

[stayscrunchyinmilk]

Originally Posted by kithre

Oh, and as an aisde, BA and DA actually count ALL of their units as scoring, because Codex rules supercede BGB rules, so imagine if you split all your squads (e.e. 2 Terminator Squads, 3 Tactical Squads, 2 assault squads and 3 devestator squads) to combat squads/ That way you can get 10 scoring units, typically you could get 15 scoring units in a FOC..

So BA Assault Squads are scoring, BA veteran Assault squads are scoring, BA scouts are better than the SM scouts, BA Devestators are scoring, as are Death Company etc etc.

BA are a electronic codex - and is easily amended. I'm not saying they're not stuffed - they will be without the amendment.
I am most upset that the DA codex - released with the catchphrase "Designed with 5th in mind" I paid good money for.

And, No, they don't all score at all. Here's what does:

Blood Angels:
Can take jump infantry as troops, so they score. Cannot take scouts at troops - they're elite.
Devastators, Scouts and Death Company etc etc do NOT score, and all cost more points.
If you have to choose between cheap scoring scouts, or elite scouts that don't score (with a WS and BS 1 higher each) for a higher cost, it's not too hard. (P.S. the scout sgnts are the same, and can make one other person have a increased BS once per turn. Oh, Devastators do that too now (BS5 Lascannon anyone? It's free and has no negative side effect)

Dark Angels: You can make terminators score by buying a unique Commander. You can buy bike squads and make them score by buying a unique commander. They are fairly prohibitively expensive (The character and the units) - For the same points as a deathwing squad with AC and the commander, you can buy:
Twenty DA marines, with flamers, missile launchers and 15 points to spare.
Or, buy Twenty vanilla marines, and have 35 points spare.
Or, for a only slight 425 points you can get the Ravenwing commander, and a whopping six scoring bikes, without any equipment.
(P.S. the commanders themselves don't score)

Buying a razorback ? BA and DA pay 10 more points, and you can't have any nice upgrades. I don't mind the upgrade difference, but i resent paying 20% more.

Well, how about the Land Raider? - Ah, that is codex specific. DA and BA carry 10 men, New vanilla marines have a 12 man capacity Land raider, that can move 12" and shoot a weapon at BS4. Dark Angels can't add a character, or move and shoot their land raider, for the same cost. Why?

The humble Tac squad. Nessecary to add to the amount of scoring troops you can have (DA don't get scouts in troop choices, so they don's score, and cost more points.)
Ten Dark angels cost 165 points, without any equipment at all. Vanilla Marines cost 170 - I should stop whining. But they do come with a free flamer, and free Missile Launcher.
- What i can console myself with is that i can put a special weapon in a 5 man squad. If you want your army composed of 5 man special weapon squad's that's fine, but if you're getting two, why not save points and get a heavy weapon as well? aren't they usefull?

Well, at least the Terminators are better in DA. Oh wait, they're not. Cyclone missile launcher? You must be running short of ammo if you're DA, you only get one shot.
Well, it's ok i have melee terminators. (Assuming you're not putting them in a rather depressed land raider) - You don't need the better storm sheilds really, it's not like you cost more..... oh. You do.

[Steel_Legianaire]

Originally Posted by stayscrunchyinmilk

BA are a electronic codex - and is easily amended. I'm not saying they're not stuffed - they will be without the amendment.
I am most upset that the DA codex - released with the catchphrase "Designed with 5th in mind" I paid good money for.

And, No, they don't all score at all. Here's what does:

Blood Angels:
Can take jump infantry as troops, so they score. Cannot take scouts at troops - they're elite.
Devastators, Scouts and Death Company etc etc do NOT score, and all cost more points.
If you have to choose between cheap scoring scouts, or elite scouts that don't score (with a WS and BS 1 higher each) for a higher cost, it's not too hard. (P.S. the scout sgnts are the same, and can make one other person have a increased BS once per turn. Oh, Devastators do that too now (BS5 Lascannon anyone? It's free and has no negative side effect)

Dark Angels: You can make terminators score by buying a unique Commander. You can buy bike squads and make them score by buying a unique commander. They are fairly prohibitively expensive (The character and the units) - For the same points as a deathwing squad with AC and the commander, you can buy:
Twenty DA marines, with flamers, missile launchers and 15 points to spare.
Or, buy Twenty vanilla marines, and have 35 points spare.
Or, for a only slight 425 points you can get the Ravenwing commander, and a whopping six scoring bikes, without any equipment.
(P.S. the commanders themselves don't score)

Buying a razorback ? BA and DA pay 10 more points, and you can't have any nice upgrades. I don't mind the upgrade difference, but i resent paying 20% more.

Well, how about the Land Raider? - Ah, that is codex specific. DA and BA carry 10 men, New vanilla marines have a 12 man capacity Land raider, that can move 12" and shoot a weapon at BS4. Dark Angels can't add a character, or move and shoot their land raider, for the same cost. Why?

The humble Tac squad. Nessecary to add to the amount of scoring troops you can have (DA don't get scouts in troop choices, so they don's score, and cost more points.)
Ten Dark angels cost 165 points, without any equipment at all. Vanilla Marines cost 170 - I should stop whining. But they do come with a free flamer, and free Missile Launcher.
- What i can console myself with is that i can put a special weapon in a 5 man squad. If you want your army composed of 5 man special weapon squad's that's fine, but if you're getting two, why not save points and get a heavy weapon as well? aren't they usefull?

Well, at least the Terminators are better in DA. Oh wait, they're not. Cyclone missile launcher? You must be running short of ammo if you're DA, you only get one shot.
Well, it's ok i have melee terminators. (Assuming you're not putting them in a rather depressed land raider) - You don't need the better storm shields really, it's not like you cost more..... oh. You do.

Its stuff like this that makes continuing to invest in this game altogether questionable, and I have honestly been looking at other table top games. I, like many here have spent untold amounts of money collecting armies (DA is amongst them) only to see crap like this new SM codex come out and put an overpowered highly abundant army at the top of the heap.

I'm not sure their reasoning for this move that not only alienates the DA and BA, but CSM and GKs too. Yea FAQs might come out to fix DA and BA but CSM and GK are still facing huge discrepancies, and I doubt the FAQs will apply to them.

Perhaps GW felt that SM weren't competitive enough already, which if anything is the players fault, because the trait system was open for exploitation to make some nasty combinations.

Guess we will have to wait and see, but one thing is for certain, if GW messes this up, sure they may sell a ton more SMs but they risk making many seasoned players feel they are getting the shaft, and that the fairness of the game has been put aside for more profits.

Just my .02

[Zarahemna]

I er have to admit that I am a little surprised. Space Marines historically have never really cut the mustard. So they are rarely placed 1st 2nd and 3rd in tournaments. In fact I think the way that no single army has dominated tournaments in the past is a testament to the balance that GW have been able to achieve. Everyone know about the dangerous builds like the old 9 Oblits army, but even then there is still variety at the top.

I also wanted to point out that you pay extra for all BA units to cover that nasty unit you get for free. Perhaps someone forgot about that...

I don't object to the DA codex. I like it. I think that it is a distinct and interesting army list which favours people who want to play DA Styleeee... If you don't then you may find that it doesn't work so well for you. Does anyone recall the SM player outrage that DAs were going to be getting cheaper Rhinos? And at present still do? Did it ruin the game balance. I don't think so.

I am all for the new codex. It looks great, smells great and is worth every penny at £15. I think that judging any codex before you have played it is a shock. I also think that when people are actually building army lists with it you will find what I have found. The new marines are not cheap at all. They become very expensive, very quickly. All of these "Intolerable Advantages" that are being discussed here will become known as saving graces for the new marines, not all conquering powers.

Time will tell but my vote is that the new lists will turn out to be fair and balanced, but still capable of downright nasty tournament play.