Who suffers the most from the new space marine?

[stayscrunchyinmilk]

Originally Posted by Zarahemna

I don't object to the DA codex. I like it. I think that it is a distinct and interesting army list which favours people who want to play DA Styleeee... If you don't then you may find that it doesn't work so well for you. Does anyone recall the SM player outrage that DAs were going to be getting cheaper Rhinos? And at present still do? Did it ruin the game balance. I don't think so.

The new marines are not cheap at all. They become very expensive, very quickly. All of these "Intolerable Advantages" that are being discussed here will become known as saving graces for the new marines, not all conquering powers.

1) DA Rhinos, with the compulsory extra armour (required for transports with AV11 that intend to move) came in at 5 points less than vanilla marines. This was offset by the increased cost of tactical marines - a 5 man squad that allowed you to get the rhino costed 15 points more. (And their equipment was more - 15 points for a DA plasma gun, or 10 for a standard marines?)
The new marine codex has rhino's at equal cost - no gripe there. However, the new razorback is 10 points cheaper, with some lovely equipment mods - I'm fine with vanilla marines getting the mods, that's what makes them special, but 20% cheaper? why?

2) They're the same cost or cheaper than DA's. please tell me where DA's are cheaper, i have been trying to find it. (And it would shut me up) They're expensive compared to the old vanilla marines, but not DA's

[frozencore]

Not cheap at all? Very expensive? I just don't see it, considering lots of units across the board got a points drop. If GW doesn't think SMs are up to snuff then they should either make them cheaper or make them better, not both. While units like bikers and assault marines cannot claim objectives their increased speed makes them great at contesting, which is just as important. Add in cheaper scouts that can claim and space marine armies can have inordinately high model counts for an "elite" force.

[stayscrunchyinmilk]

Originally Posted by frozencore

Not cheap at all? Very expensive? I just don't see it, considering lots of units across the board got a points drop. If GW doesn't think SMs are up to snuff then they should either make them cheaper or make them better, not both. While units like bikers and assault marines cannot claim objectives their increased speed makes them great at contesting, which is just as important. Add in cheaper scouts that can claim and space marine armies can have inordinately high model counts for an "elite" force.

Bikers can score with the white scars "Obscene" company master.

Which, in comparison with Dark Angels Ravenwing:

1) Company Master to enable bikes to score - Same Cost.
2) Company Master's Equipment and Stats - White Scars Far superior.
3) Bikes cost - White scars far cheaper (approx 30pts per squad of 6)
4) Bikes equipment - White Scars Superior (admittedly not much in it, but sgnt has 2x ccw's in comparison to DA's one, and same base attacks)
5) Attack Bikes - White Scars Cheaper.
6) Landspeeders - This turns into an absolute farce for DA, with more expensive, poorer equipped landspeeders (And not the new varient).

Wish i hadn't got two Ravenwing boxes to add to the Dark Angels Company.

[Steel_Legianaire]

Originally Posted by Zarahemna

I don't object to the DA codex. I like it. I think that it is a distinct and interesting army list which favours people who want to play DA Styleeee... If you don't then you may find that it doesn't work so well for you. Does anyone recall the SM player outrage that DAs were going to be getting cheaper Rhinos? And at present still do? Did it ruin the game balance. I don't think so.

The rhino was a single piece of equipment, and truth be told its like sending your marines into the fight riding in a tank made of cardboard and duct tape, its a rolling coffin. It wasn't a key piece of equipment, and was only one piece.

The big problem here is there is a lot more wargear being introduced at lower cost than what other equivalent units pay, and this will add up. Not only is it different, some of its better. It would of been like the DA rhino coming out cheaper and with 12 front armor.

Not saying the new SM will be unbeatable, but my DAs, and GKs will be hitting the bench in favor of the IG until the discrepancies are accounted for. I don't care how awesome a marine is, a battle cannon shot to the face generally makes him and his pretty wargear go away....unless they get cover saves which who doesn't with the 5th ed.

[Zarahemna]

I never claimed that you were going to agree with me. Only that I would prove to be right.

I think that Razorbacks have been reduced in cost to encourage people to use them, most players faced with the difference in capacity and cost in the DA codex would go for the Rhino. As for Extra Armour being compulsory, I have no idea what you are talking about. In my codex it is an option and I don't mind Rhinos that weigh in around the same as two marines.

This thread is quite speculative, it is largely based on like for like comparisons. In a game based around whole lists I just don't think that is appropriate. 40k is a game of armies and the new armies that the Smurfs churn out are expensive. SM elites are really elite now, by the time you have given them the kit you want you will find that armies come out quite small and that people will consider the marines just as expensive as ever.

I think I will be bourne out by this very forum and I suspect that in around 3 months or so when people have had a chance to play and experiment a bit that my comments about the high quality of the list and the way that DAs and BAs will still be able to take it out in friendly or Tournament level games will have been proven to be true.

I don't expect you to agree with me now but I think I will be shown to be right in the end.

I for one don't plan on abandoning the DA list and I am surprised that people think they will need to bench their guys because the new dex will be so overwhelming powerful. Where I come from that is called fatalism.

[stayscrunchyinmilk]

Originally Posted by Zarahemna

I never claimed that you were going to agree with me. Only that I would prove to be right.

As for Extra Armour being compulsory, I have no idea what you are talking about. In my codex it is an option and I don't mind Rhinos that weigh in around the same as two marines.

I do admit I may have whipped myself into a frenzy a bit there. (With melodrama and a bit of exxageration thrown in - can't you feel for my pain after doing 7000 points including a whole company?)

I am of the opinion that I'll be proved right, and that there will be no DA list you can't do better with Vanilla's, but we'll see.

I do look at extra armour as being fairly vital for troop transports, as rhino's have a relitavely low av and I feel it's important to keep them moving - I am starting to shift a bit on this, as the weapon destroyed / immobalised result doesn't mean automatically stunned anymore (Although being immobalised stops that dilemma)

If a Dark Angels owners army self combusts, and there is no-one around to hear him, does his wails of anguish make a noise?

[jaybird]

meh, as a bt player, i'm not complaining about anything. 5th ed just gave every single one of my initiates master-crafted chainswords, neophyte meatshields to take plasma hits, the same speed as a jump pack marine, nigh-invulnerable transports that can STILL fire everything moving at 6", AND 4+ cover saves everywhere. i love it!

[Imladrik86]

Unless they release an FAQ my 3000pts of DA are going to sit in lovely GW carrying cases in my garage....
I'll go play my High Elves which are competitive...

Its absolutely absurd that the fluff elite armies are going to be so much worse then the vanilla DIY chapters running around.

Somewhere deep inside the Rock...the Lion is crying

[weaponunit]

why dont you just your BA,DA,BT armies with the new space marine codex, surely you would be able to represent your current armies by picking appropriate traits.

that way the only money wasted would have been on your DA codex or whatever

[stayscrunchyinmilk]

Originally Posted by weaponunit

why dont you just your BA,DA,BT armies with the new space marine codex, surely you would be able to represent your current armies by picking appropriate traits.

that way the only money wasted would have been on your DA codex or whatever

And the two ravenwing boxes, ForgeWorld DA bits, the 8 Veteran Boxes, and the hours and hours and hours painting DA insignia. (£ 246 and 6months of painting at least 10 hours per week.).

Edit :and not being able to compete in tournaments as the GW tournament package states that SM armys painted as a specific chapter, with specific traits cannot be used as another chapter.