Who suffers the most from the new space marine?

[kildash]

Originally Posted by stayscrunchyinmilk

Bikers can score with the white scars "Obscene" company master.

Which, in comparison with Dark Angels Ravenwing:

1) Company Master to enable bikes to score - Same Cost.
2) Company Master's Equipment and Stats - White Scars Far superior.
3) Bikes cost - White scars far cheaper (approx 30pts per squad of 6)
4) Bikes equipment - White Scars Superior (admittedly not much in it, but sgnt has 2x ccw's in comparison to DA's one, and same base attacks)
5) Attack Bikes - White Scars Cheaper.
6) Landspeeders - This turns into an absolute farce for DA, with more expensive, poorer equipped landspeeders (And not the new varient).

Wish i hadn't got two Ravenwing boxes to add to the Dark Angels Company.

umh... actually, any captain on a bike will enable bikes to be taken as TROOPS...

there's a different character though that make vanguard squads count as SCORING, essentially making it possible for the marines to have 18 scoring units, although that would go way beyond 1500 pts...

[Konrad_SS]

Originally Posted by weaponunit

why dont you just your BA,DA,BT armies with the new space marine codex, surely you would be able to represent your current armies by picking appropriate traits.

that way the only money wasted would have been on your DA codex or whatever

Traits are gone, dude. So you can't give your average Brother Joe the option to swap his bolter for bolt pistol & close combat weapons, or give your assault/tac/dev squads tank hunters/infiltrate etc and more. So no more BA, SW, DA, BT wannabe chapters...

Originally Posted by jaybird

meh, as a bt player, i'm not complaining about anything. 5th ed just gave every single one of my initiates master-crafted chainswords, neophyte meatshields to take plasma hits, the same speed as a jump pack marine, nigh-invulnerable transports that can STILL fire everything moving at 6", AND 4+ cover saves everywhere. i love it!

Hate to rain on your parade brother ( and I say this as a fellow BT player ), but the new 5th ed actually screws us up quite a fair bit ( imho ). I agree entirely with you on the preferred enemy vow's advantages & the unfortunate neophyte meatshields. But lets see:

1 ) Righteous Zeal: We cant zeal into close combat anymore. Thereby removing the once interesting dilemma for our enemies to decide whether to shoot us, we take casualties, chance of passing leadership and running into base to base contact and denying them of charge bonuses. I posted this issue for debate on the rules section, but this gentlemen who replied, believes that we can MUST MOVE ( from zeal rules ) UP TO ( from 5th ed consolidation rules ). So we can choose to move from ZERO UP TO ( insert whatever you rolled for D6 ) inches. Therefore, we can choose to move ZERO inches. I personally disagree & think thats a cheesy interpretation, but everyone is entitled to their opinion.

Also, without Combat Tactics & being fearless in CC, means you're stuck in til you win or you die. Can't choose to disengage via Tactics ( & re-engage following turn ), so we die trying once in HtH.
And no use running D6" in lieu of shooting when we don't have fleet & can't charge. Might help for scrambling into cover though... And running forward might not be a good thing when the enemy can use your zeal to bring you even closer to be charged...

2 ) Kill Them All (aka target priority ) : BT rule that you MUST take the target priority test at -1 LD to shoot another target other than the closest. The latest FAQ has clearly stated that this rule is still in effect, and therefore our AT sqds must still test to shoot pass screening enemy infantry at that big fat tank behind ( no more large selection in 5th ). Just imagine what would happen if you fail the test.......

You can have a look at my post if you need details: http://www.librarium-online.com/foru...o-kidding.html

3 ) Sad Fisties: We don't get sergeants ( except in command squads ). Therefore the powerfist wielding Initiate just got shafted to 1 basic attack & 2 on the charge. Albeit with re-rolls to hit IF you take the preferred enemy vow. Think CC with walkers ( esp Eldar Wraithlords with T8 that S4 from your other ordinary Brother Joe templars can no longer hurt in HtH )

4 ) Disgruntled Heroes: Used to be only a select few gentlemen in the Blessed Holy Imperium of Mankind has WS6, like Dante, Mephiston, Grimnar, Ragnar, Ulrik & our beloved Emperor's Champion. Now every tom, dick & harry Chapter Master & Brother-Captain has WS6 in 5th ed. So our heroes & our fellow esteemed heroes from BA & SW ( except above named chars ) get hit on 3+ by arrogant lil, newly-promoted Chapter Masters/Brother-Captain whelps from other SM chapters, when BT, BA & SW are supposed to be the best CC chapters in the Imperium!?

And the Emperor's Champion has 2+/4+ saves, S6 power weapon ( aka the famed Black Sword ), yea? Well guess what, check out the new Chapter Champion from the Honour Guard Squad. He gets 2+, WS5 & re-rolls to hit and wound on enemy ICs. And did I mention he can purchase something cool and new called the relic blade- S6 power weapon? ( as do all his Honour Guardians & Chapter Masters/Captains ) ( note irony, LOL )

5 ) Points Costs: As stated by many previously. Hurts more for BT because our basic Brother Joe costs 16 pts & needs 1 pt more for frags to be effect at their CC role. Thats 17 pts. With mandatory zeal tests, gw's trying to encourage larger squads. But larger squads at higher costs per model = fewer Crusader squads = fewer scoring units.

6 ) Vehicle & Equipment Function: As stated by many previously. Obviously, someone in the BT, DA, SW, BA's Departmento Armourium screwed up & forgot to order the improved equipment from the nearby forgeworlds... Might have been some malfunctioning red tape servitors or those criminally incompetent pen/paper-pushing Chief Techmarines ...

Now, hold on here .... even DH? The vaunted Grey Knights? The famed Chamber Militant of the Ordo Malleus!? Saturn's moon of Titan being less than 1,764.290904 million kilometres away from MARS itself?!? Gasp *shocking silence* ..... Anyway, enough said.

Originally Posted by Dr. Paris

DA, BT, and BA all get new faqs to make them match up with the new SM rules. SW will get a new book anyways.

Originally Posted by je_suis_roux

Actually they do not

Games Workshop New Product Seminar at LA Games Day MiniaturePeddler’s Weblog

At 530 the question is ask and answered with a no

But all thats said, the important thing ( imho ) is not that Space Marines are getting buffed in 5th ed.

The Question is: Are the other Divergent Chapters getting buffed/updated with them?
ie, we need those frakking FAQs & hopefully updated army lists & stats else we're screwed.
Thats why news like above, supposedly 'accurate & first hand from primary sources' really worry me .....

Hate to whine, but my 2 cents.

[jaybird]

agreed, templars have taken a hit in effectiveness in some areas. however, you gotta remember the lrc dedicated transports. they're the only heavy tank that can fire everything on the move, and their frag launchers negate the need for frags on initiates. 270-ish points nets you a land raider crusader with extra armour and smoke launchers. first turn sprint 12" up the field, pop smoke, and you're nigh invincible hiding behind a 4+ save and av14 all around. next turn, roll up 6", drop the ramp, run your crusaders out, blow shit up, use the massive size of your squads to charge 2 or even 3 enemy squads each. 15-man crusader squads stuck in with accept any challenge are going to do a ridiculous amount of damage.

the need for a faq is evident, though, so agreed there

[BLADERUNNER]

personally I'm still trying to pick up the dust from the release of the new sm dex. In my opinion its not what got worse...I'm going to put my finger on it as whats got revamped. There is totall opportunity in the vanilla sm army. I agree pretty much with all the BT statements that have been made so far.

For one thing, if from what I hear LRCS OR LRs are going to get a seat reduction...you can say goodbye to your reliable armoured transport...with large squads capable of lasting untill the end of the game. Thats pretty much the only thing I'm pissed off about.

[Konrad_SS]

Originally Posted by BLADERUNNER

personally I'm still trying to pick up the dust from the release of the new sm dex. In my opinion its not what got worse...I'm going to put my finger on it as whats got revamped. There is totall opportunity in the vanilla sm army. I agree pretty much with all the BT statements that have been made so far.

For one thing, if from what I hear LRCS OR LRs are going to get a seat reduction...you can say goodbye to your reliable armoured transport...with large squads capable of lasting untill the end of the game. Thats pretty much the only thing I'm pissed off about.

Well, actually the humble LR is getting a seat increase ( someone smart finally decided to junk that underused cappuccino/energy bar vending machine in the LR's trooper compartment )
I read through the preview copy of the SM 5th ed at a store.

Basically means LR's seat capacity has increased from 10 - 12 models ( or 5 - 6 termies )
which i definitely welcome as it finally allows termie ICs to accompany standard 5-man termie sqds.

A lil miffed they dint give the LRC & new LRR a corresponding increase from 16 - 18 seats, but thats all fine by me.

The key issues that have to be updated for BT,BA,DA,SW,DH,WH thru FAQSs are the new updated PoMS & assault vehicle rules.

New PoMS- Allows 1 more main weaponry to be fired than would normally be allowed. And also at different target. ( no more BS2, just BS4 all the way ) Therefore LR & variants moving at combat speed can shoot 2 weaps ( + all def weaps ) at different targets or 1 weap at cruising speed. (ie move 12" and shoot t-l asscans or godhammer lascannons etc )

New Assault Vehicle Rules - Old rules: Only models disembarking from front assault ramp can charge into CC on same turn. New rules: All models disembarking from any/all of the 3 access points can charge into CC on same turn.

PS: Chaos LRs too might need to be updated on the seats issue, unless gw's sticking to the story that pre-heresy LRs still retain the vending machine, LOL...

[meh]

Its absolutely absurd that the fluff elite armies are going to be so much worse then the vanilla DIY chapters running around.

Somewhere deep inside the Rock...the Lion is crying

It it the time of ending..... of all things not MEQ

[Phalanx]

Originally Posted by Konrad_SS

The key issues that have to be updated for BT,BA,DA,SW,DH,WH thru FAQSs are the new updated PoMS & assault vehicle rules.

SW already get these upgrades. Their books says to reference the main marine book for them. They also get the new stormshield rules and stuff along with the ability to take the new land speeder squadrons and lone tornadoes and typhoons. However they pay a lot more for a lot of things (ex: preds) and I don't think they can take redeemers or crusaiders, or if they can take crusaiders then its the old version from Codex: Armageddon. I'd have to say in some small ways having such an old codex is a bit of an advantage because they get a couple of these updates while other chapters don't (though they're still screwed over with a lot of point costs and stuff like that).

DH and WH Land Raiders do have the new PoTMS, though. Its been FAQ'd already, as has the land raider assault vehicle rule IIRC.

[Trench Rat]

Anyone else pretty excited about the tactical marines having a bolter AND bolt pistol as standard? Makes them a lot more effective in my book.

Rapid fire one turn, pistol fire and assault the next. Will make certain armies a lot more wary of blindly running at tactical squads - the possibly of them counter charging may be a force to reckon with.

[fatal_cake]

IMHO the other chapters are put at a bit of a disadvantage right about now, simply from being faced with Vanilla Marines that are much better equipped (a bolter AND a bolt pistol? SUFFER NOT THE WITCH TO LIVE! And surely this is witchcraft)... though I do enjoy the fact GW is making the more major chapters a very separate group of Marines. The BT struck me as a very stubborn and less than rational group of individuals who would mock the need for two ranged weapons, as advantageous as it would prove.

Something to note though that the older codices had was heavy weapons in small squads. It looks like while the heavy weapons are cheaper in the 5th Ed. codex, you need a 10-man squad before even being able to get them... it's not a huge deal considering most wouldn't bother with heavy weapons in a 5-man squad, but it's handy when you just want a tiny squad with a few meatshields for your missile launcher to survive a little longer with. Especially handy for when you want a very assault oriented army (which, lets face it, and BT player will aspire for) and heavy weapons like a missile launcher are an encumbrance on a team of ten initiates who are intending to charge into the fray. Just my thoughts.

[jaybird]

why would you take heavy weapons in troops as bt anyways? fast attack and heavy support are where i get my firepower from...