Topic of the Week: VS Chaos

[Lost Nemesis]

Announcement: The Topic of the Week threads will from here on out be posted on Tuesday evenings. Mondays are too close to the weekend, and with the 40k campaign Battle for Aurora Prime about to start here on LO, I need to distance the two projects.

The topic for this week is a doozy - Space Marines vs. Chaos. Either the twisted warp entities from the Chaos Daemons codex or the fallen Space Marines you once called brothers, how do you combat the Astartes' eternal enemies? Do you call in aid from the Daemonhunters or stick to your codex, and what units do you tend to take over others in order to prevail?

Anything from lists to tactics against the forces of Chaos can be posted here!

[mario96]

This is for Chaos Daemons
I tend to take deepstiking units such as landspeeders, regular terminators, and pretty much any unit that has the option.
What I do is deploy my troops and HQ on the corners of the table and once a good chunck of my opponents force is on the table I deepstrike far away from the daemons(because usually they deepstrike right infront of my already deployed forces) and let loose the firery hell of space marine landspeeders and terminators
I've tried this with succes but it failed me once when my opponent got VERY lucky rolls

[ForgedInTheFurnaceOfWar]

Attributes of Choas:

Superior close combat ability.
Superior close range fire power.
Inferior anti-tank.

They are equal or just slightly better in every other way.

Conclusion?

Things get messy for space marines. Without tailoring your list chaos will have a lot of natural advantages.

The Basic 1500 competitive MECH Space Marines Army -

Captain, relic blade, digital weapons, 140.

Tactical Squad, melta gun, multi melta, powerfist, rhino, 235.
Tactical Squad, melta gun, heavy bolter, powerfist, rhino, 235.
Tactical Squad, flamer, plasma cannon, powerfist, razorback, 240.
Tactical Squad, flamer, Las cannon, powerfist, razorback, 245.

Attack Bike, multi melta, 50.
Attack Bike, multi melta, 50.
Attack Bike, multi melta, 50.

Predator auto cannon, heavy bolter: 85
Predator auto cannon, heavy bolter: 85
Predator auto cannon, heavy bolter: 85

1500/1500

This army wants to get into the thick of it with the opponent, but won't find success doing so against chaos. Instead I would combat squad every tactical squad. Force them to come to you.

A couple of tips:
Attack Bikes don't want to get close to transports when shooting at them, hit them at more than 20 inches away. This way your attack bike isn't auto dead next turn.

That Lash Daemon Prince starting in cover thinks his pretty safe right? Not from the Predators, nail him with the combined firepower of all 3 of those tanks and watch him fail armor saves.

[Tyfus]

Facing chaos i've been falling more and more in love with my rhinos.

Against CSM i'm usually facing double lash lists. Hiding the troops in rhinos to avoid my troops beeing moved away is nice.

Against demons i've found that the rhinos give me a nice mobility that some deamons army lack. The rhinos are also nice blocking terrain against the good CC-units of deamons (and some CSM units), so i can focus my attention (mass fire or melta) on one or a few units.

[Mad Cat]

The humble space marine librarian has uses against both types of chaos army.

Against Daemons the null zone power is invaluable.

Against CSM armies the Psy hood should save you from 42% of the lashes cast.

[Tyfus]

I used a librarian before, because of the hood against lash (and the farseers).

Lately i have dropped him because of underperformance. (he may be tainted of corse).

Beacuse of the new range rule for the hood in 5.ed SM-codex the hood-effect can't be "everywhere". Specially against chaos lash, the libby needs to be up front. He then dies fast. He's not the good CC-unit he used to be, and the chaos player will focus fire or CC at him.

[Demon in White]

Vindicators are your friend.

But yeah, on a more serious note, I find the best way to defeat Chaos is with lots of plasma weapons. The high Strength combined with the low AP can really decimate them. Plasma Cannons especially.

~ DiW

[EvilKota]

I think that if you are playing against chaos deamons allied with chaos sm you have to use 10 grey knights squad.2 land speeders.Captain on bike with hellfire shells and power sword and with digital weapons is very cool.Vanguard veterans are good against chaos terminators.Black templars are so good against chaos with their emperor champion.
So
2 land speeders with melta
10 men black templars squad with 2 flamers and power sword
emperors champion with accept any challenge rule
5 grey knights
5 grey knights
marshal hellembec
10 men squad with meltagun powersword
2 rhinos
land raider crusader
----------
force weapons are cool against deamon prince

[Chirality]

Against Chaos Daemons I usually favor a mech list with shooty units like Sternguard, plasmacannon Tactical squads, Vindicators, Dakka predators and lots of flamers as I usually get eaten alive in CC against my two friends lists. Except when using flamers on weakened squads I like to keep them at bay and shoot away. I still keep around a unit of TH/SS Terminators in a LR, but they are there primarily to tackle the 2-3 Soulgrinder/Defilers I know I'll be facing. The next time I face them I think I'll try rotating a unit of Grey Knight Terminators and/or a Librarian with Null zone to counter the invulnerable saves Daemons get.

Against Chaos marines I use my normal tactics of taking down his vehicles then chewing down his squads at range then move in for a concerted assault.

[seismic]

Overall i would think that loyalists have an equal if not better chance of victory against their fallen brethren. That being said, i was told on numerous occasion that it is not the case; Perhaps loyalists simply look better on paper , but not so in practice. In any event , I've not faced a chaos force in ages so i can only give a theoretical statement in regards to tactics versus the heretics.

Aside from a few nuanced wargear options , daemon princes & defilers , there is no unit in the traitor marine's arsenal that can't be emulated in the Emperor's finest : Cults are Grey knights/ Sternguards, Obiterators are land speeders typhoon/attack bikes, Possessed are vanguards with relic blades/storm shields , "Gates of infinity" is a reversed "Lash" ... Minus a discrepancy in point cost, every element is mirrored in some unit or combination of units. Though loyalists do end up with more options in range and fewer in close combat.

So where is the loyalist's edge? They have a broader range of units, better synergies between unit/wargear choices, but most importantly: Combat squads , combat tactics & chapter tactics. I think that far too many Space marine players try to beat their opponents the old fashion way: To death . When they should , in fact , focus on a strategic victory, which is where i think Marines really shines.

One should always consider the mission first

For missions with "objective" marker ,Your chaos opponent will probably send his Berserkers into your territory while lashing your troops off other markers and keeping his Plague marines to back up his position. I would assume that regular Csm troops would bridge weakening areas.

-Of course you'll need to combat squad your troops ; beyond the normal benefice associated with more scoring units, it will minimize your loses in close combat and will greatly increase the number of target to "lash".

-Secondly you'll want to "tar pit" the berserkers ; I wouldn't use Ss/Th Terms , the insane amount of attack will eventually chew through your 2/3++ saves . Instead i would use an Ironclad , only the Zerker sergeant would be able to wound the Ironclad: A little more than 1/2 the attacks would hit , only 1/2 of those would penetrate , i like those odds. An other alternative is to use Scout bikes (I'm serious!) they cost almost the same , the bike movement would almost guarantee them the charge (Denying furious charge) and their 5 toughness would impair the number of wounds inflicted. In case of close combat failure you'll still get an extra dice when retreating , meaning you'll probably be able to regroup, then charge again.

-Finally, don't forget that daemon prince have 3/5++ saves; I've found that ,a great number of small arms fire will bring down princes much better than plasma or lascannon, which are better used against Plagues and defilers anyway . Rapid fire hell fire rounds or missile launchers would be preferable in this situation , but regular bolter shots will do the trick if done in enough quantity.

If you're playing kill points, Princes and Zerkers should be your priority, they will cost you a lot if you don't deal with them early on and are easy to target compared to Plagues. You'll want to position some back up near the units the prince and zerker are most likely to hit;

-Princes will go after Bikes, light/med armored tanks, troops. A squad of terminators or a decently geared HQ will probably be your best bet. If you managed to hit a few wounds at range, you may get out of it alive , otherwise...

-Zerkers will probably go after your regular marines, scouts ... anything with armor saves really. I'd say the key is to bust whatever transport their in early in the game . An interesting option after that is to use a subterranean shell of the thunderfire cannon to slow them down. Otherwise as mentioned above , bikes and dreadnought to force a stalemate.

-Of course conserve all possible plasma for Plague marines. They're quite hard to beat in close combat if you don't have power weapons of some kind ,but are very vulnerable at range.

Anyway , i've rambled on for way too long!

-Peace