Fusion blasters?

[Rikimaru]

Eh, people can and do have some success with Farsight on occasion. He's not my thing at all and he's no Mephiston or Ghazghkull at all, but at least he's usable. Shadowsun is barely presentable, and Aun'va is a bad punchline.

Farsight is OK in friendly games nut I have never seen a competitive Farsight build ever. No Kroot, restrictions to heavy and 0-1 restrictions to most units that actually make a Tau list work.
I have Farsight and have used him in 1500pt friendly games (with a very poor win/loss record I might add) but the fact is he is not a good character for Tau, a close combat geared character that cannot even take the only CC skewed unit in the Tau list (Kroot) does not exactly make much sense to me.
The usual idea with Farsight is the deathstar XV8 unit which is probably the worst idea with Tau after the Fire Warrior gun line lists.

[BSM]

So the current advice is to only run Fusions on a piranha or if you've got an elite slot free on a stealth team, fusion canons or cascades are needed in the new book methinks

[Tayne]

Nope, I use a single suit to deep strike into the enemies backfield. Twinlinked BS4 melta deepstriking with the pathfinders fish for accuracy is something the enemy cannot ignore. I use the positional relay to get that in sooner, and to keep the warrior squads off board until later.

[Rikimaru]

Nope, I use a single suit to deep strike into the enemies backfield. Twinlinked BS4 melta deepstriking with the pathfinders fish for accuracy is something the enemy cannot ignore. I use the positional relay to get that in sooner, and to keep the warrior squads off board until later.

Pos relay, deep striking XV8's, reserving FW's. Mmmmm OK, well the pathfinders DF only offers a re-roll for DS so it doesn't actually improve accuracy and I think I can count on the legs of a three legged stool how many times I have ended up within 6" of the target vehicle with a Deep strike. The odds on one Fusion shot doing the job (roll to hit, roll to penetrate, roll to damage) is pretty poor.
Taking one Fusion XV8 uses up a whole elites slot that is better used taking a unit of XV8's with Missile pods that can stay at range and do more damage for longer. Chances are the Fusion XV8 will die the next turn because it can't move into cover or away. So basically you have an XV8 that if it does not scatter will more than likely end up nowhere near where its needed or even if it does land near the target will probably not do the job and will die horribly next turn.
I personally would find that Fusion XV8 very easy to ignore and why are you using the pos relay? Can't think of any reason to take up a support system slot and pay the points for it.

So yes BSM the advice is to use fusions on Piranha's and if you have an elites slot free (though if you have a slot free it should be filled with XV8's not Stealth's) then I suppose a couple on a team of Stealth's would be OK. Yeah Fusion cascades would be nice.

[Tayne]

Yes, Riki, I play differently to yourself. I never said it arrived and nuked things, I said it was a threat that could not be ignored. Psychology is a strong part of the game, and my opponents tend to freak about a twin-linked melta behind them. BSM, experiment. It's the best way to find how Tau (or any army) fit your playstyle. Certainly some things are universally panned (vespid/Aun'va spring to mind), other's vary. One chap at my club only plays a Farsight list when he breaks out his Tau, something this thread has panned completely, yet he gets on fairly well with it. Me? I sucked the one time I tried it, but then I didn't practise the list so didn't have a chance to experiment with it's potentials.

As for why I use the positional relay, a couple of reasons. Having a near-guaranteed reserve arrive is decent (though with my ability to roll 1's I don't count on it), having it there to mess with my opponent's tactics? Golden. I briefly mentioned using it to keep the firewarriors safe before and that's still true. Off the board, they cannot be targetted and using the relay on another unit keeps them from the board. That doesn't reach their objective with them, but helps hold yours.

Additionally, with any army I play I like options. I love playing with things like infiltrate, scout and combat squads to vary things and throw out curveballs, the positional relay works with this idea.

[Rikimaru]

Yes, Riki, I play differently to yourself. I never said it arrived and nuked things, I said it was a threat that could not be ignored. Psychology is a strong part of the game, and my opponents tend to freak about a twin-linked melta behind them. BSM, experiment. It's the best way to find how Tau (or any army) fit your playstyle. Certainly some things are universally panned (vespid/Aun'va spring to mind), other's vary. One chap at my club only plays a Farsight list when he breaks out his Tau, something this thread has panned completely, yet he gets on fairly well with it. Me? I sucked the one time I tried it, but then I didn't practise the list so didn't have a chance to experiment with it's potentials.

Well your opponents must be easily intimidated, I for one would not be stressed by a single fusion but then I do know the game and know what constitutes a serious threat and one BS3 twin linked fusion is not a big threat. You have to be incredibly lucky to do serious damage, very lucky. Like I said I cannot see the sense in using an elite slot on a throwaway unit that is no real threat when you can take XV's that will do a much better job.

Like I said Farsight is OK for fun lists but I can absolutely tell you 100% that Farsight lists are not competitive, it just has to many limitations and deathstar units simply do not work that well especially one led by a CC based character with no CC support to speak off. Practice is all well and good but if the tools aren't there then no amount of practise will make it good.

As for why I use the positional relay, a couple of reasons. Having a near-guaranteed reserve arrive is decent (though with my ability to roll 1's I don't count on it), having it there to mess with my opponent's tactics? Golden. I briefly mentioned using it to keep the firewarriors safe before and that's still true. Off the board, they cannot be targetted and using the relay on another unit keeps them from the board. That doesn't reach their objective with them, but helps hold yours.

Additionally, with any army I play I like options. I love playing with things like infiltrate, scout and combat squads to vary things and throw out curveballs, the positional relay works with this idea.

Well given the fact that Tau have no real need for infiltrate other than Kroot (and even then in very rare circumstances), even Pathfinders rarely benefit from scout. Fire Warriors should be in Devilfish and holding units off the board is usually a bad thing for Tau.
Tau rely on quick and hard hitting application of fire power and keeping fire power of the table just gives the opponent more time to move closer to or shoot what ever Tau units are on the table. Reserving or playing Ninja Tau does not work that well and any good opponent will take full advantage of the turns of reduced fire power from the Tau to gain bard position, get closer to objectives and pour its own fire into the Tau units because they will have more fire power to do so because less damage is coming their way.

I am interested to see your list and description of how you play, what armies you play against and how you utilise the pos relay and deep strike because I have played Tau since day one and never found any use for deep striking, routine use of reserves and especially the pos relay. Tau work by laying down fire power, destroying units and slowing down the opponents army, reserving units makes that a lot harder to do.

[Tayne]

Well your opponents must be easily intimidated, I for one would not be stressed by a single fusion but then I do know the game and know what constitutes a serious threat and one BS3 twin linked fusion is not a big threat. You have to be incredibly lucky to do serious damage, very lucky. Like I said I cannot see the sense in using an elite slot on a throwaway unit that is no real threat when you can take XV's that will do a much better job.

Riki, I'm not sure whether you mean to sound so aggressive, but your posts come across that way. I'm not interested in a flame war, but am happy to discuss things. As (I think) that's what you intend, I'll carry on. The monat Helios is not BS3, I add a targetting array. Again, you speak of being lucky to do damage, but I've not said that it does that. It's a nuisance, that is all. If it does damage, great, if it diverts enemy attention, perfect. Drawing them back is even better than blocking them, it'll give me more time to shoot them.

I don't know how much you play Riki, but you've stated that you have played the game for a long time now, so you know and understand the game a lot better than other folk I'd imagine, especially Tau and their limits as they are your primary army (correct me if I'm wrong here). Most opponents don't have that wealth of experience, especially regarding other people's armies. But "everyone" knows how Melta Is King in the current edition, and if people know of Tau they know our Railguns and our Battlesuits. My opponents may think that suit is more powerful than it is, doubly so as they no doubt have some nightmare experience where a melta has insta killed their landraider or whatever.

Well given the fact that Tau have no real need for infiltrate other than Kroot (and even then in very rare circumstances), even Pathfinders rarely benefit from scout. Fire Warriors should be in Devilfish and holding units off the board is usually a bad thing for Tau.

My apologies, I wasn't clear enough here. I do not just play Tau, and meant that I like those rules generally for the ability they have to open up options for me. In all honesty, I rarely remember that Pathfinders can Scout. My firewarriors cannot hide in the Devilfish initially, as they don't often have their own one but jump in the Pathfinders 'fish instead.

Tau rely on quick and hard hitting application of fire power and keeping fire power of the table just gives the opponent more time to move closer to or shoot what ever Tau units are on the table. Reserving or playing Ninja Tau does not work that well and any good opponent will take full advantage of the turns of reduced fire power from the Tau to gain bard position, get closer to objectives and pour its own fire into the Tau units because they will have more fire power to do so because less damage is coming their way.


I am interested to see your list and description of how you play, what armies you play against and how you utilise the pos relay and deep strike because I have played Tau since day one and never found any use for deep striking, routine use of reserves and especially the pos relay. Tau work by laying down fire power, destroying units and slowing down the opponents army, reserving units makes that a lot harder to do.

I partially agree with you, but Tau also rely on movement to my mind. Using ours well and hindering your opponents so that we can get that all important shooting done. Piranha's and kroot-bubblewrapping are often cited as the best ways we have to do this, and with good reason, but as I said above, this is another factor for your opponent to consider.

Regarding Deep Striking, I am only talking about deepstriking this one model, no other parts of the army. If anyone else was considering deepstriking units of crisis teams, I'd discourage them in general unless they had a specific plan. Now, one of my other armies is Chaos Daemons, so I'd wager I have a lot more experience DSing than most Tau generals.

For my list.. well, I don't have one. I'm one of "those guys" that tends to bring a new list every week. That's not to say I change it heavily with three skyrays one week, no heavy's the next or anything, I just tend to arrive at my club ask who wants a game and at how many points, then sort my army to that points value. I don't create from scratch, I adapt the army I was intending to use to be 1500, 2000 etc, then find out what army they have brought. With that said, the army I'd use to utilise the Relay/deepstriking would have a Fireknife commander, two full deathrain crisis teams (one often has flamers, there's a lot of orks in my general area), two 6 man firewarrior squads, at least two squads of Kroot (one of which will be larger and use hounds, the others smaller speedbump squads), 1-2 pathfinder teams, 2 broadside teams with plasma (normally 3 and 2 men strong). I'll make sure that I have two devilfish for the firewarriors. Oh, and the Helios with twinlinked fusion and a targetting array.

I won't go too far into specifics now as I need to get off to work in a mo, but if I reserve, it'll be the helios squad and some troops held back. Yes, we need firepower, but 6/12 pulse rifles don't add that much and protecting troops in objective missions can be critical. If I need to, I'll outflank the larger Kroot squad as an offensive threat.


Lastly, to the OP. Riki and I play differently, and that's fine. We're discussing how we use our Tau, not saying they cannot be used, and I'm giving another example of how fusion blasters can be used in game. If you want to try this out, feel free. If not, at least you know of the option. Oh, and I don't think I've said this yet, but I always run my piranha's with fusion. It's significantly more powerful than the burst cannon, though they rarely get to use it (they fly out and block, and then they die).

[BSM]

Love a bit of passion for a race that has been neglected for so long!

I've not had any luck with deep striking units although my Helios with shieldsx3 did ninja Tau a unit of terminators once (it's never happened since).

I have to disagree that 5th is a melta-game as there are to many units that can close you to CC beyond 12".

I'm running fireknives on all my XV8s now because it is the most "tactical" option (and I'm a little stuck in 3rd ed, nostalgia an all)

[Tayne]

Heh, glad you approve BSM. It's kinda weird to be commenting, I normally lurk about on forums without posting.

Of course it's not a melta-game, we have Railguns! In all seriousness, the meta in general is about melta/missile launchers more than anything else right now. Yes, things can take you down when you're in melta range, but melta squads either kill things or are suicide squads. Incidentally, how big did you run your Helios? I've only found mine useful as a cheap, suicide striker. 53 points I'm willing to give up for that, but not more.

I used to run Fireknives, but I found them underwhelming. The AP2 just meant that the few plasma wounds I'd get invariably end up double-stacked so just one model loses the feel no pain bonus, and he'd usually get a cover save against the shot anyway. I'd rather put them on HQ first, then perhaps my Broadsides. On the Broadsides they're much cheaper and twinlinked, and already in your back line. People get a nasty surprise when they dart forwards 6" and rapid fire twinlinked plasma. And I'm more than happy to replace the SMS system for that.

[Rikimaru]

Riki, I'm not sure whether you mean to sound so aggressive, but your posts come across that way. I'm not interested in a flame war, but am happy to discuss things. As (I think) that's what you intend, I'll carry on.

I get this all the time and I am sorry if I come over that way. I am simply saying what I think and I am simply discussing the subject at hand. I do wish that people would realise that (not you Tayne as you seem to get that I am discussing not being aggressive) this is the internet and I am typing answers not talking face to face, discussing on the internet means all the subtlety of speech, conversation and context is lost and I wish people would take that on board.

The monat Helios is not BS3, I add a targetting array. Again, you speak of being lucky to do damage, but I've not said that it does that. It's a nuisance, that is all. If it does damage, great, if it diverts enemy attention, perfect. Drawing them back is even better than blocking them, it'll give me more time to shoot them.

I don't know how much you play Riki, but you've stated that you have played the game for a long time now, so you know and understand the game a lot better than other folk I'd imagine, especially Tau and their limits as they are your primary army (correct me if I'm wrong here). Most opponents don't have that wealth of experience, especially regarding other people's armies. But "everyone" knows how Melta Is King in the current edition, and if people know of Tau they know our Railguns and our Battlesuits. My opponents may think that suit is more powerful than it is, doubly so as they no doubt have some nightmare experience where a melta has insta killed their landraider or whatever.

Which is why I said your opponents must be easily intimidated because no experienced player is going to devote masses of his force to take down one XV8 (BS4 twin linked fusion or not). A single Melta is a very slim threat. I tend to talk from the perspective of competitive play because to be frank you learn nothing on forums talking about fun games. Nothing wrong with friendly games (I love them as much as anyone) but in threads like this where we a re discussing the best use of something (unit/weapon etc) then sorry but your (or any ones) experience against opponents that do not have much experience is not much help for people wanting to learn how to use Tau to their full potential against experienced players or in tournies. Melta is dangerous no doubt but it is only dangerous in well built units, for example two melta's in MSU Marine units that can get to your lines in Rhino's or Razors and deliver two BS3 shots and survive next turn because of power armour saves.

Quite simply what you are doing with that Fusion XV8 is just wasting an elite slot that could be used for some thing so much more useful, not meaning to be aggressive or patronising, it is simply the way I see it. Tau need fire power that can be utilised from turn one to the last turn, that is shoot and your Fusion XV8 gets one turn and then dies and is no longer a threat, a unit of Deathrains will threaten in the same way as the fusion XV8 but do so for much longer.

My apologies, I wasn't clear enough here. I do not just play Tau, and meant that I like those rules generally for the ability they have to open up options for me. In all honesty, I rarely remember that Pathfinders can Scout. My firewarriors cannot hide in the Devilfish initially, as they don't often have their own one but jump in the Pathfinders 'fish instead.

Fair enough, I play different armies as well and infiltrate is useful. I don;t tend to use it much for Tau though and I only use scout to get in better cover or LOS for Pathfinders. My Fire Warriors never start the game in a Devilfish (they use the Pathfinders DF) but I rarely reserve them as it is easy enough to hide them behind the DF's (6 man units)

I partially agree with you, but Tau also rely on movement to my mind. Using ours well and hindering your opponents so that we can get that all important shooting done. Piranha's and kroot-bubblewrapping are often cited as the best ways we have to do this, and with good reason, but as I said above, this is another factor for your opponent to consider.

Tau rely on a combination of movement and blockading/castling but they rely on one thing more than any other (yep you guessed it) shooting, you simply need to pack as much shooting into those elite slots as possible and a single XV8 even with TL BS4 fusions is not utilising one of those slots to its best advantage. The threat of 6 BS4 TL Missile shots a turn for six or seven turns is a much scarier factor for your opponent than a single Fusion XV8 that threatens one unit and then dies.

Regarding Deep Striking, I am only talking about deepstriking this one model, no other parts of the army. If anyone else was considering deepstriking units of crisis teams, I'd discourage them in general unless they had a specific plan. Now, one of my other armies is Chaos Daemons, so I'd wager I have a lot more experience DSing than most Tau generals.

Well we are on agreement there. If you have experience with DS then you should know how much of an unknown quantity it can be. It is so unreliable to the point that I hardly ever use it with any army unless the army has some sort of DS enhancing ability (like decent of Angels etc). DS is also easily guarded against with intelligent utilisation of terrain and deployment of the army. Tau really don't have much use for DS and sorry but that includes your suicide XV8. By the way I have played against Daemons a lot and and never found them much of a challenge.

For my list.. well, I don't have one. I'm one of "those guys" that tends to bring a new list every week. That's not to say I change it heavily with three skyrays one week, no heavy's the next or anything, I just tend to arrive at my club ask who wants a game and at how many points, then sort my army to that points value. I don't create from scratch, I adapt the army I was intending to use to be 1500, 2000 etc, then find out what army they have brought. With that said, the army I'd use to utilise the Relay/deepstriking would have a Fireknife commander, two full deathrain crisis teams (one often has flamers, there's a lot of orks in my general area), two 6 man firewarrior squads, at least two squads of Kroot (one of which will be larger and use hounds, the others smaller speedbump squads), 1-2 pathfinder teams, 2 broadside teams with plasma (normally 3 and 2 men strong). I'll make sure that I have two devilfish for the firewarriors. Oh, and the Helios with twinlinked fusion and a targetting array.

Don't list tailor, nothing wrong with it as such but I prefer to build an army and then rely on my skill as a player to handle what is thrown at me, just enjoy it more that way. I do have three different Tau lists I use but I take one and use it whatever I face on the night, I don't change between the three on the night so to speak.

I won't go too far into specifics now as I need to get off to work in a mo, but if I reserve, it'll be the helios squad and some troops held back. Yes, we need firepower, but 6/12 pulse rifles don't add that much and protecting troops in objective missions can be critical. If I need to, I'll outflank the larger Kroot squad as an offensive threat.

I outflank Kroot on occasion but they are better on the field. You admit we need fire
power but stick a unit of XV8's in reserve for possibly three turns and DS mishap can render them useless very easily as can just scattering into a bad position. Sorry but XV8's don't belong in reserve, they should be on the field from the beginning doing what they do best.

Lastly, to the OP. Riki and I play differently, and that's fine. We're discussing how we use our Tau, not saying they cannot be used, and I'm giving another example of how fusion blasters can be used in game. If you want to try this out, feel free. If not, at least you know of the option. Oh, and I don't think I've said this yet, but I always run my piranha's with fusion. It's significantly more powerful than the burst cannon, though they rarely get to use it (they fly out and block, and then they die).

Yep Piranhas tend to do that, which is why I only take two. I fond the Fusions are rarely useful but I take them just in case, same problem as the Helios, only one shot.
You are right though you play differently and that is indeed fine and it is good to discuss things without animosity. Like I said I always talk from a competitive point of view so I tend to be less how shall I say 'accommodating' of tactics, tactics, weapons etc that don't work in a competitive environment and I know this can come off sounding dismissive, arrogant and aggressive even though I am not intending to be anay of those things.