New Tau Player Needs some input

[Ultratau]

I have read a few things on here and watched/listened to some reviews on Tau. I have also read a few differing tactics vids. Here is what id like to get an opinion on. First, i would like to run Commander Farsight. Is it worth running him and losing out on the kroot and limiting my self on the vehicles? Second, should i even run kroot at all? Are they worth the points to use them s meat shields for the firewarriors or and answer to close combat armies?

In my warhammer grp we have 5 marine , 1 IG, and 1 Necron players.

[Astantia]

Ignore for a second the drawbacks of using farsight. Forget the composition restrictions, forget all the negatives.

For the points cost, you get:

A commander with:

+1 ws, -1 bs, +2 i, 4+ invul save
A plasma rifle
And a close combat weapon that ignores armor and increases damage against vehicles.

There are also three other 'benefits': your units can regroup if below quarter strength, you can take a bodyguard of 7 suits and you get preferred enemy against orks.

I don't know about you, but my meta is pretty space marine heavy, and when I do play against orks, I haven't had a terrible need to be more effective against them. It isn't a bad buff by any means, but it's very situational. Maybe with the new allies rules, well see more orks about also, so this might actually be a redeeming quality.

The bonding knives aren't really that great, and here's why:

Under 6th edition, you can normally regroup unless you are under 25% of your original number. Doing some quick math, the following table shows you for a number of models in a squad, including drones, how many you'd have to have left in order to benefit from bonding knives.

1:-
2:-
3:-
4:-
5:1
6:1
7:1
8:1
9:2
10:2
11:2
12:2
13:3
14:3

Take a look at those numbers. Bonding knives will help you save the little odds and ends in your army, but don't provide anything of real value, as your squads will have to be severely destroyed before you get any benefit from them. They are free in a farsight army, but they aren't very useful.

So now, the 7 suit squad. Seven battle suits is an amazing amount of fire power, that will kill things dead when they shoot at them. But now that they have no target locks, you will have a large chunk of your points consistently over-killing. But even then, let's say you be more conservative with your bodyguards. Take 3-4. This amount of firepower is good for dropping marines and terminators reliably. But now, you are giving up a reason to take the farsight list. Your 20 maximum suits is reduced to 17. Which is only 2 more than a regular list.

Multiple detachments can increase the number of suits, but as per o'shovahs entry in the codex, an army he is in is still limited 0-1 for each of the heavy and fast options, so you are still limited to the maximum of 4 railguns. You could bring 35 crisis suits in a double detachment o'shovah army, assuming you could find the points for all that. But I digress.

So, if we didn't take o'shovah, but we wanted a unit that could do something similar to him and his 5 bodyguard unit we would take a commander and 2 bodyguards twice.

Let's assume the commanders and bodyguards all have mp, pr, ta, and hwmt.

O'shovah costs: 580 points
6 bs4 plasma rifles
5 bs4 missile pods

Traditional commander costs: 522
2 bs5 plasma rifle
2 bs5 missile pod
4 bs4 plasma rifles
4 bs4 missile pods

The traditional commander setup, by the way, can split their fire between two units, be in two different places, take excessive wounds, deep strike easier, stay out of line of sight easier, etc etc.

So, now let's look at the last thing that o'shovah brings that a traditional list doesn't: the commander's close combat 'ability'. Let's assume that you don't have him in a bodyguard, so that when he's in combat you aren't wasting the shooting prowess of the better equipped bodyguard suits.

He is basically: striking first, due to higher than average initiative, with 4 or 5 attacks that ignore armor. Let's put him against terminators. Relative stats puts him at 3s to hit, 3s to wound, then termies invul save. TH/SS terms are going to ignore most of his swings, and if it's an enemy character, these wounds are not causing instant death. Then the th/SS strike back and instakill the commander. If its LC termis, he wont be instakilled, and he might even drop a terminator or two before he goes down, but he will go down. He is mediocre at combat, but his shooting is nerfed to accommodate it.
Now, let's say he is with a bodyguard. Every round spent in close combat is a round that that unit is not spending shooting its weapons. Every battle suit in your army must be putting out the highest volume of shots possible in order to achieve victory. Choosing to send them into combat because your commander can ignore armor saves is a bad idea. Plasma rifles also ignore armor saves, and with a bland ws, you're going to land more hits with the pr than with their fists.

So, in the end, you are paying nearly 200 points (plus the bodyguard) to get a unit that is worse than the traditional commander load outs. The benefits you get are marginal or situational. And in addition you can only ever put 4 railguns into this list.

As it stands, I'm going to say make up the model, as it is a really cool concept, and hope that his new rules in the next codex are awesome. But don't bring him to any game that you want to have a fair chance of winning.


Sorry for the epic post, but I hope that it helps you with your decision.

Edit: updated bonding knife information for 6th edition.

[Ultratau]

Thats exactly what i needed. Awesome breakdown. I watched some vids on Tau loadouts and not 1 spoke of a Farsight load. That explained in great detail why i shldnt take him. So yea that made my decision real easy. Thanx alot.

[VampireCabbage]

On the subject of regrouping, don't forget that it changed in 6th as well, you regroup with a standard morale test is you're at 25% strength or above, so the bonding knives only help when you're below that 25%

If you're on a minimal FW squad of 6 models, this is when you have 1 left

and the only time it ever has an effect on suits is if you hit 5 models plus, which in a standard list is 3 suits and 2 drones, with the 7-strong suit squad its when you have 1 left - assuming you don't take any drones

[Astantia]

Haha. That's awesome, I totally overlooked that. Updating my comment.

[Ultratau]

I took a hard look at that. I think i fully understand why Farsight isnt used much. I have also seen differing opinions on using fish for the FWs. I think i can assume with the new 6th rules about glancing to death these become easier to kill and may be too expensive in this edition.

Am i right in thinking the army revolves around the battlesuits?

[Blackadder]

I took a hard look at that. I think i fully understand why Farsight isnt used much. I have also seen differing opinions on using fish for the FWs. I think i can assume with the new 6th rules about glancing to death these become easier to kill and may be too expensive in this edition.

Am i right in thinking the army revolves around the battlesuits?

Yup - Battlesuits are the Tau's answer to pretty much anything the enemy can throw at us, bar the heaviest tanks I think. Due to the nature of their equipment, you can pretty much tailor a suit unit to take on any type of enemy units they'll be facing. To give some examples, say you're fighting Guard (or guard equivalents - GEQs) you'll want to load up your suits with equipment to give them as many shots as possible, in order to deal with the horde numbers - say... Burst cannons, flamers, maaaybe missile pods (to deal with light armour and/or insta-kill guardsmen) and so on. If you're fighting Marines/Terminators (or marine/terminator equivalents - MEQs/TEQs respectively) then you will want to load up on stuff which still gives you as many shots as possible, but which also negates their greatest strength, namely the great armour saves of 2+ and 3+. Plasma Rifles, Fusion Blasters, Missile pods and so on are the way to go here, as while you might be shooting a lot less than with Burst Cannons, what you'll probably find is that you will get kills more reliably using this set-up.

The other thing to remember with battlesuits is to almost always equip them with a Multi-Tracker - this great little piece of equipment lets you shoot more than 1 weapon in your shooting phase, allowing the suits to always throw out their maximum number of shots - almost never leave home without this thing on the suits, unless you're twin-linking weapons. For commanders who want an extra-hard-point, take the MT as hard-wired instead.

Next, for unit size, I generally find it's best to run in units of about 2 for your regular suit units... not too big to make it difficult to hug cover, but not too small to not throw out enough shots either... that's about all I can tell you here though, and there are some excellent Tau tactics articles here on Lo Commanders should generally just run on their own, or join a suit team... I think the general consensus is that Bodyguards aren't that great. Lone suits can work too, although they're generally in my experience suicide suits, given say twin-linked fusion blasters (melta-guns), deep-striked behind an enemy tank, blow said tank up, and then are shot/chopped down by the resulting mob who desire to get revenge on our brave little Shas'ui.

Finally (at least I think it's finally) It's good to remember the Jump Shoot Jump tactic for suits, which can make them a real pain in the arse for the enemy. The tactic is simple, start your suits behind some cover, say a wall, and in the movement phase, move them out in the open so they can draw a line of sight to their targets. In the shooting phase, shoot your guns, and cross your fingers that you kill something. Then in the assault phase, you use the jet-packs on the suits to zoom back into cover again and laugh as the enemy hopefully can't enact retribution on your suits. The rules have changed a bit since 5th, but my current understanding of it is that while you can still pull off this manoeuvre, instead of just going 6' like you used to in 5th, the distance is now 2D6'... so It pays to not move too far out of cover so that even if you get a double 1, you can get back in... (and I imagine you don't have to move the full 2D6).

That's pretty much all the basics of suits that I know of And while this list isn't exhaustive, there are some great tactics articles here on LO which can give more info. Remember also that while these guys are certainly our most versatile unit, they wont win battles on their own either - and it's always good to have balance in our lists. As a matter of interest, what sort of Tau list are you looking to build? Mech, foot or a hybrid of the two?

[Astantia]

I have also seen differing opinions on using fish for the FWs. I think i can assume with the new 6th rules about glancing to death these become easier to kill and may be too expensive in this edition.

They were too expensive in 5th edition, when they were more armored and could claim objectives. Now, they are just too much. The only reason I would take them is to get more vehicles on field in order to break my opponents target prioritization.

Yup - Battlesuits are the Tau's answer to pretty much anything the enemy can throw at us, bar the heaviest tanks I think.

Fusion blasters work. Inefficient, but they do work.

Next, for unit size, I generally find it's best to run in units of about 2 for your regular suit units... not too big to make it difficult to hug cover, but not too small to not throw out enough shots either.

My general rule is to make as many units as possible. So if I have 3 suits, they are 3 monat units. If I have 6 suits, they are 3 pairs, so on and so forth. In my 2000 point lists, I typically grab an extra commander and some more fire warriors in order to unlock more elite slots so I can further split up my suits. Now that we don't have target locks on our suits, getting as many independent units as possible is important.

I think the general consensus is that Bodyguards aren't that great.

I disagree. My elites slot suits are all twin-linked weapon + targeting array, team leader has a HWBSF. My bodyguards and commanders are all MP,PR,TA,HWMT. Commanders get a HWBSF and drones if I can afford them. My elites teams are typically Deathrain, Bladestorm, Sunforge in a 2:1:1 ratio, depending on points. Sometimes, I don't take Bladestorms, as we have a great anti-horde option in hammer heads, and if I bring broadsides, I typically drop the Sunforges. But my bodyguards are always Fireknife, and I haven't run a 2K list without at least a couple in a great while. Of course, I always take as many commanders as I can, and they are also Fireknife configurations.

Remember also that while these guys are certainly our most versatile unit, they wont win battles on their own either

I disagree entirely. If the codex could let me field an all suit army, I totally would. It would be awesome and glorious. Sometimes, I bring 2 minimum fire warriors squads and a hammer head and then just spam suits in a 1500 point list. Depending on composition, I can usually get 15 or so suits. Now, this army has a significant disadvantage in objective based games, and I wouldn't bring it to a tournament, but it is ridiculously fun to play. Especially if you deep strike everything.

That being said, you have mostly great advice there. I would just add that the suits have a move distance of 9" - 24" if you run and 8" - 18" if you shoot. The average distance if you run is 16". The average distance if you shoot is 13". Remember those numbers, and use them as a rough guide as you try to slide into better positions, not just bounce back and forth into cover. As of 6th edition, you can always measure distances, so use that and the law of averages to your advantage.

[Blackadder]

They were too expensive in 5th edition, when they were more armored and could claim objectives. Now, they are just too much. The only reason I would take them is to get more vehicles on field in order to break my opponents target prioritization.




Fusion blasters work. Inefficient, but they do work.



My general rule is to make as many units as possible. So if I have 3 suits, they are 3 monat units. If I have 6 suits, they are 3 pairs, so on and so forth. In my 2000 point lists, I typically grab an extra commander and some more fire warriors in order to unlock more elite slots so I can further split up my suits. Now that we don't have target locks on our suits, getting as many independent units as possible is important.



I disagree. My elites slot suits are all twin-linked weapon + targeting array, team leader has a HWBSF. My bodyguards and commanders are all MP,PR,TA,HWMT. Commanders get a HWBSF and drones if I can afford them. My elites teams are typically Deathrain, Bladestorm, Sunforge in a 2:1:1 ratio, depending on points. Sometimes, I don't take Bladestorms, as we have a great anti-horde option in hammer heads, and if I bring broadsides, I typically drop the Sunforges. But my bodyguards are always Fireknife, and I haven't run a 2K list without at least a couple in a great while. Of course, I always take as many commanders as I can, and they are also Fireknife configurations.




I disagree entirely. If the codex could let me field an all suit army, I totally would. It would be awesome and glorious. Sometimes, I bring 2 minimum fire warriors squads and a hammer head and then just spam suits in a 1500 point list. Depending on composition, I can usually get 15 or so suits. Now, this army has a significant disadvantage in objective based games, and I wouldn't bring it to a tournament, but it is ridiculously fun to play. Especially if you deep strike everything.

That being said, you have mostly great advice there. I would just add that the suits have a move distance of 9" - 24" if you run and 8" - 18" if you shoot. The average distance if you run is 16". The average distance if you shoot is 13". Remember those numbers, and use them as a rough guide as you try to slide into better positions, not just bounce back and forth into cover. As of 6th edition, you can always measure distances, so use that and the law of averages to your advantage.

Lots of great advice in there too I'll be honest and say it's been a while for me when it comes to playing Tau, and as of yet I haven't actually had any experience of 6th (I only really play games with my friend, and only the other day/week got the 40k rulebook off scribd) but I've read/used loads of tactics articles haha.

They were too expensive in 5th edition, when they were more armored and could claim objectives. Now, they are just too much. The only reason I would take them is to get more vehicles on field in order to break my opponents target prioritization.

Agreed unfortunately - at more than twice the cost of a marine Rhino for very few additional buffs the humble Devilfish could really do with a Price drop. I generally play games at 500-750 points, so there it actually does fairly well despite eating up points, and the suits I get in that level also compensate for it's lack of fire-power when compared to an all out tank - hopefully, and almost certainly I think, it'll receive a price drop in the new Tau 'dex.

Fusion blasters work. Inefficient, but they do work.

agreed again - it's the inefficiency I worry about when I run fusion blasters on the suits to specifically hunt tanks - at least with a rail-gun head or broadside you've got the safety of like 70 odd inches of distance between you and the enemy! - but if you frig it up with a fusion suit, chances are they're toast next turn. Aside from T/led suicide tank hunting I don't use 'em much, because for me plasmas do pretty much the same thing, can get more shots, and paired with the missile pod make a great all rounder suit. Only if i wanted to instant death a particularly dangerous enemy, and because I play small games a particularly dangerous enemy can be a game-changer, would I consider taking them, but if you're smart that enemy shouldn't get within 12' of anything anyway haha.

I disagree entirely. If the codex could let me field an all suit army, I totally would. It would be awesome and glorious. Sometimes, I bring 2 minimum fire warriors squads and a hammer head and then just spam suits in a 1500 point list. Depending on composition, I can usually get 15 or so suits. Now, this army has a significant disadvantage in objective based games, and I wouldn't bring it to a tournament, but it is ridiculously fun to play. Especially if you deep strike everything.

Agree completely again, especially with the bolded part! - suits are possibly one of the most versatile and cool units in 40k, an entire army would be great fun. Wouldn't make much sense to me, but it'd be great fun nonetheless. They are also I think, quite well priced too, at 10 points less than a rhino, for what they can do and what you can give them...

[Ultratau]

Here is what i was thinking for around 2k points.
Commander suit with 2 BG suits
Fw x2
Elite Bsuits x6
Pathfinder team
HS Broadsides x6
Sniper team

I havent fully decided on a loadout yet and i may add some kroot for a speed bump.

You guys have tossed alot at that and now i have to think about it as i buy the minis. I think i need to focus on the compulsorily unit first then branch out.