Welcome to Librarium Online!
Greetings all! Ive been reading this forum for a while and now that ive assembled my army started to paint it and gotten a few games under my belt, i figured the time was right to ask for advice. Ive played four games now, and first let me say that although this game is waaay more complex then 40k, im having a good time, or i will be, when rules i havent gotten down yet keep biting me in the ass. "what do you mean i cant just charge them, they are right there, next to me? i have to facing them!? Rediculous!"
So, i shelved my Tourney winning Nid army for a bit as many of my friends started playing Fantasy, and i didnt mind having another army to play. I read through most of the army books and ended up falling in love with the tomb kings, much to the dismay of everyone i talked to. "You dont want to play them, they suck/ are hard to play/ are too complex for a newbie/ eat babies" i bought the Tomb kings regiment box, a few other boxes of skellingtons, a box of cavalry, some assorted blisters, and went to work.
Good grief, you peaple need to warn us newbs. After gluing skellingtons all willy nilly, in an assortment of awesome poses, i have a hell of a time to get them to rank up now. "damnit! stand next to eachother!" it a good thing my army is already dead, becuase there is a lot of stray elbows and weapons in the next guys eye, and that sort of thing.
Anyways, i ended up loving Tomb Queen Khalida's Fluff, and planned on using her as my army general. so i build a lot of archers. A LOT of archers. But at 2150 pt games, she doesnt seem to be working out as well as id hoped, and shooting in WFB is way less powerfull then it is in 40k. Heres my list of completed units...well models, that i can make into units, anyways, and my impressions so far, which id like to have you guys check. Ive got over 4000 pts of the littel buggers, without really realizing it as id never played, and my unit composistion is off balance i think. For instance, i dont have any war machines and i think that was a bad call.
1. Tomb Queen Khalida. Shes too expensive for the size games my shop plays (2150) i think, though perhaps ive been using her wrong, no armor save at all is really hard for me to fathom as a 40k player, and everyone takes flaming axes, so her regeneration doesnt help that much. On the other hand, she has so much potential to be awesome that i still want to find a way to use her. She poisoned and killed the Emporor Karl Franz who charged her on a griffon, and then the next turn did the same to his silly griffon, in what is so far my only highlight in a string of losses.
2. Assorted lich priests. Ive got about 4 i think. They all look the same, which drives me nuts. Youd think in an army of identical skelingtons the sculptors would try to give you more of a variety in charachters. as it is, ive been hacking on some of them to change them around some. Poor bastards. As to thier use in the army, they seem really solid. I mounted one to run with my cav, and the others i try to bury in units.
3. Tomb kings/princes. Ive got 2. Shield one with sword, and that angry pointing fellow with the spear, or two handed weapon, whatever it is. Princes seem to be my best all around charachters, for what they can do versus what they cost, but so far all i fight is dwarf lords with flaming weapons, and that damn flying Jarl Franz, so they arnt quite up to those challanges. I havent run a king yet, ill try that next. So far ive used my queen twice, and a liche high preist once, and the Liche lord army did way better. Im still feeling my way through thier equipment list as well, some things in there seem really hard to use. For instance, the destroyer of eternities. at 70 pts, that means you cant give your king a save at all, except for light armor, and maybe the vambraces of the sun would help. So far in the games ive been playing, he wouldnt last one round of a challange with just a 6 up save, though that damn Karl franz guy seems to ignore armor anyways...
3. Tomb guard x 30, with command. My god i love these guys, of course, i can only use 25 for soem reason (why!?) but they are always solid. One of few reliable bright spots in my army so far. My tomb prince or Queen always get stuck in this unit. Im thinking of gettign another box so that i can use the 5 extras laying around.
4. Skeletal Axemen. x 36, with 2 commands. I wanted a more regimented look for my soldiesrs, so i didnt arm them all willy nilly with the weapons from the undead sprues. I made so many archers that i was able to arm them all with the axes. I usually roll these in two blocks of 18 with command. Wondering if musicians area waste of time for undead, though they help now and again. Decent units, they seem to get exploded, stabbed, shot and beaten alot, but i guess thats what they are for. They run on the flanks of my Tomb gaurd now. I learned that lesson quick. " Detachments!? counter charge!? oh poop!"
5. 60 skeletal archers. Yup..60. I thought shooting would work out sorta like 40k and quantity of shots might overwhelm quality, specially if i made them poison..but it just doesnt seem to be working out that way. still experimenting with them, blocks of ten or twenty, advancing on flanks or standing on hills. They seem usefull, i think i just went a bit overboard on them. They hit rather often, with the Khemri archers rule, but at strength 3 they dont wound much.
6. 10 heavy horsemen, including a champoin and a standard bearer. Eh, ive not decided on these fellows. potential is there, they charged karl franz and cuased a wound before he murdered them all, but at WS 2 and STR 3, 4 on a charge, you have to be very carefull how you use them. Knights of brettonia, they arnt.
7. 6 light horsemen. These guys are...odd. so far i just use them to escort my mounted lichepreist to wherever he needs to be, and get a few more odd shots off. Also if i can cut down on march moves with them i try, but since as undead if im charged i can only stand as a reaction, i cant flee with them, and that makes getting close to a unit a bit risky.
8. 3 Chariots, with champ and banner. Impressive units, specially since i figured out they counted as light cav and get a free reform. i think ill get 3 more. Fragile though with only a 5 up save, and a favoreite target of cannons. Why do cannons auto kill them? It it a str over toughness thing like in 40k?
9. 5 swarms. Yay swarms! awesome unit, fear causing, 5 attacks apiece and poison. wish i could take more. as it is i only take 4 most times. Since the two armies ive played agasitn so far are war machine heavy, i use them to come up behind the cannons and cuase trouble where they can.
10. Tomb scorpion. Good unit over all, specially paired with the swarms. Id like another one. Question. He has poison and killing blow. Dont both of those apply to rolls of 6 on attempting to hit? Sort of like my nids rending. Roll a 6 to hit and he wounds automatically with poison, yes? When does killing blow come in, on rolls of 6's to wound? Im a bit confused here.
11. Tomb giant. I actally havent gotten to use him yet, and my level of points hes spendy, and the two armies i face are full of cannons so i figured hed be destroyed on turn one.
12. UShabti x3. I think i need more of them for them to be usefull. vulnerable to shooting, they die before they get anywhere.
Thats my available list. IM still learning the game, and figuring out WHERE to deploy a unit with WFB's way more complex movement rules seems nearly as important as WHAT units to bring. I know i need a warmachine, im trying to decide between a casket or a catapult. Having to learn to play versus dwarves with cannons and organ guns and units that could care less that i am dead, and my poor skellingtons are barely strong enough to wound, AND and empire army containing KArl franz on a griffon, 2 cannons, a mortar, and 2 of those crazy volley guns that shoot 3 artillary dice is a rather steep learning curve for me. But im trying not to get too frustrated, and im hoping you guys can help me with some tips or tricks. Charachter equipment issues are huge. Our low armor saves seem to be murdering me, and if i take one of the two heavy armors then i cant really get a good weapon, either wat i lose challanges versus dwarf lords or karl franz. hopefully ill fair batter versus other armies.
Also, if dont use my queen, do i take a king or a liche preist as a lord? ID like the combat power of the king, but my empire oppenent takes a lvl 2 fire wizard, a lvl2 light wizard and a warrior preist, and just bones me with fire spells. Do princes/kings generate dispell dice? Ive read about tomb kings dominating magic phases but im struggling. You get 2 dispell dice base. yes? if i dont bring at least 5 dispell dice each turn im hosed, and that means a high preist and a preist, or 3 preists. And im leaning twoards more preists so that i can affect more units in the magic phase. How do i balance my armyis reliance on my preists with the need to have SOMEONE out there who can stand up to other heroes?
Anyways, this went waaaay longer then id hoped to, i apoligize for any of you that actually read this far. ANy advice for a new player would be appreciated greatly. Thanks!
Last edited by Xerxxes; July 23rd, 2007 at 23:39. Reason: I need to spell more guuder
Ok first up the modelling thing, you wont be the first 40k player to have done that in fantasy, one of my mates did that when he was assembling skaven, hmm long tails and weapons ....
Anyway, poison works on the to hit roll while, killing blow works on the to wound roll. Thus if an attack is poison it skips the roll to wound and can not be a killing blow. (hope that helps)
Tomb kings and princes don't generate any dispel dice (see notes on Settra's armies for full complaints)
I would personally take a tomb king as my general (mostly because the theme of my army and I have four times as many chariots as you...). With your army you dont have that many special choices at the 2000 points that you definetly require the chariots to be core. Thinking about this I would recommend a liche high priest for your army and take a tomb prince as the general.
Well for a player pretty new to fantasy, you have a lot of stuff! But i think you may have thrown yourself in at the deep end. Best advise i can give is to start small, do a few 1000point battles whilst you get used to the rules and the army.
Generally, for an army to be effective in Fantasy, it needs to be able to participate well in all phases, movement, magic, shooting and Combat. Yor are correct, generally, in that an army cant win by just shooting the enemy to death like in 40K. Fantasy is a far more tactical, in depth and enjoyable game.
Khalida is an awesome special character. The ability of poisoned arrows in a Tomb King army means that when shooting half of the shots that hit will wound automatically. It helps weaken the enemy. However when the enemy reaches you in close combat, the skeleton warriors need to be able to win. Fear and outnumbering is your friend. Personally i like to field units of 25 archers.
Also, Khalida's irresistsable force smiting incantation is best used on the Screaming Skull Catapult. You said you have no war machnes, id definitely suggest getting atleast one of these.
As for the rest of the army, the setup you prefer comes from experiance. There are a lot of questions in your post, and giving full answers would take a while. However a quick read through some of the Tomb King posts and army lists on here should answer most of your questions.
Strength 7 or higher auto kills chariots which is why a cannon (strength 10) will kill it in one shot There is no "insta-kill" rule in FB with regards to strength over toughness like there is in 40K.
The bone giant is fantastic. If you're playing against cannons a lot of the time then you might find that, yes, he can be killed quite quickly (especially by the great cannons of the empire) but don't lose heart, for other armies he is very annoying to play against! >.<
Great opening post btw(Y)
Use the Collar of Shapesh. Not a save per se, but it beats the King having to take the hits.For instance, the destroyer of eternities. at 70 pts, that means you cant give your king a save at all, except for light armor, and maybe the vambraces of the sun would help. So far in the games ive been playing, he wouldnt last one round of a challange with just a 6 up save, though that damn Karl franz guy seems to ignore armor anyways...
The Destroyer is built to go hand in hand with the incantation of smiting. If you can get that off you'll be looking at killing 4-6 models a turn depending on the base size.
... only triumph could turn pooing his pants into a good thing..
Holy thunder crunk you have a lot of stuff for being new to the game.
My one main piece of advice would be to ask your opponents to tone it down a bit while you get a feel for your army's units and their capabilities, ie, you'll never find out exactly how big a baddie a Tomb King can handle if all he ever does is get squished by Karl Franz. If your buddy what plays dwarves is taking flaming weapons all the time, no foul, but if he's taking them just to exploit your characters flamability, he should be more open to letting you learn a bit instead of just trounce all over you.
As a final note on your characters - I've found that taking armor on your Kings and Princes is a waste. Our characters are T5 (which is very high in Fantasy). Anything that can reliably wound us can easily punch through the 4 or 5+ armor we can easily generate. The best thing to do is capitalize on fighting capability and grab up a ward save - Collar of Shapesh for a psuedo ward or Gholden Ankhra.
Well welcome to tomb kings
I have not really any ideer how good the queen is a lord, but way to expensive for 2k games.
When you face shotting armies like empire or dwarfs! There are two options one try to get close to them or shot back!
Dwarf are the hardest ones to beat, having 9-10 Ld all over, T4 and all armoured!!! But there is one good thing, dwarfs are not cheap = few dwarfs:yes:
The special thing about dwarfs as you said your self is the rune magic item setup having the best items for the opponent they meet (flamming vs Tomb kings). This makes the dwarf lord/hero very hard to beat if you + they +1-2 armour save. A dwarf lord in a iron breaker or hammer unit is a nut to crack for any army.
Going in to CC with them at first is not the best ideer, you need to soften them up a bit, this is where you nice catapult coming in
You like bows and shotting stuff catapult will be your best friend, take two of this + some magic tricks and you have 4 catapult shots per turn:w00t: I know there is only 10-15% chance of making them run and they will with 90-95% chance rally next turn.
Firing the catapult first turn is the easy part, if you set your catapults at the table edge there is be 32" to his closest units (if he is all the way (24") from you). Try to remember how much he moves the units.
The most importen part of making his slow (fat) dwarfs moving to your side of the table is your scorpions or carrions (I like scorpions best) coming before below or flying and killing of his warmachines!
Arrows are problerly not going to do much dmg to his dwarfs but still some kills are better then nothing.
Empire is not totally same thing, they shot but with T3 and not that much armour, arrows hurt them. The best thing is still to kill of his warmachines and get your own to fire 2 times.
Just remember that empire have horse and knight's making them faster than dwarf in every way.
+ they have magic and lots of it!
Good thing is lower Ld 7-8 for units and like 9 for lords, but still just catapults panik tests will do dmg here.
A good start list/army is some thing like this:
Ops one more thing never giv you units champions or musicains they are way to expensive and 95% of the time you will never use them!!
tomb king or high liche priest
If you take king 2 or 3 liche priest's,
if high liche a prince and 1 or 2 priests
3 blocks of skeletons with bows and standard brearer if you want too (just 15 to 20 in each)
you should have like 300-400 points left you can spend on something fun like tomb guards or Ushabti's.
The ideer is to have the bows on a line and form up when opponents units is too close.
Using the magic face to shot 2 times with all units and kill the left overs when they come.
I hope this helps and sorry if my english is bad (it is very later at night)
Hmm. I hadnt thought about the toughness 5 of our heros. FIghting that jerk Karl Franz all the time may have skewed my perception of the type of combat ill be facing most of the time. Still, Im not really certain how to deal with that guy and hes not going to go away. Shooting doesnt do alot and he could care less about magic.
My next game will hopefully be agasint dark elves and i might perform a little better before im smashed back into the sand. On another note, for my impressions of the units, are they right, for the most part? am i missing anything important?
Aaaand, i know that i need some carrion, they sound usefull, but i really hate the model, nor do i want to pay ten dollars a blister for them, specially considering ill need at least 5 to gurantee they do thier job reliably. I was wondering, does Fantasy have a "Counts as" rule like 40k does? I was thinking about what i could model to replace those ugly carrion, i needed something that could fly, and realistically appear as if they approximated thier stat line, and i decided after eyeing my bits box and researching some of stories and myths of the middle east, that perhaps enchanted swords would work. A pair of swords per base, scimitars if i can find them, painted to be sort of ghostly looking, hovering about head height. If i assembled that and painted them, would they be legal for tourneys?
Thanks alot for the tips and encouragement, i know that im fightign an uphill battle here, but im having fun learning.
I was trying to come up with an alternative model for carrion too. The best thing I could come up with was a Sand Worm Reaper miniature, but the damn thing cost more than the GW carrion, and there was only one pose. Oh well. If you wanted to replace Carrion with some sort of flying sword, you wouldn't hear any bitching from me, so long as A) You let me know you're flying swords were carrion before the game started, and They are on the proper base size (40mm). You should be okay at a tournament too, although there always exists a chance that someone is just very anal retentive.