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I was reading the stats on the tomb guards, with only a 5+ save i really dont think they are that useful, even with a toughness 4.
The ushabti have better WS, better STR, equal toughness, more wounds and more attacks. They are also a construct and also have the 5+ save, so they lose less dudes through combat resolution.
Yes, ushabti are more points, but for 16 tomb guard vs 3 ushabti (roughly equal value) the ushabti win. Whats the point of taking them in! Except for magical attacks and killing blows, which is useless against a 3 toughness (no armour save) or a 4 toughness (6+ armour save). So the killing blow doesnt really come into use untill you get to 5+ toughness units. They are slow and lightly armoured.
Help out the tomb guard people! are they really worth it? I might as well just put my Tomb king/prince with a unit of skele's, with the 2xD6 (pick the higher roll) regen every magic phase, they have a better chance, although only toughness 3, WS2. Maybe i could just put the TK with ushabti, that would be a hard hitting unit, but too many eggs in one basket.
I prefer Ushabiti, great models great rules, can't beat that.
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no, tomb guards are WAY better, they may cost more, but they rule.
a unit of 20 tomb guard, full command, banner of the undying legion costs 295 points. For that you get killing blow, magical attacks, ws 3 (what's not bad in TK), a strenght and toughness 4, and a combat resolution of 4 (3 ranks and a banner).
the ushabti's may cost less and may do more damage in combat, but they get more wounds because they still just have a toughness 4 and just a 5+ save, so normally, against elite units they lose and tomb guards don't.
besides, ushabti's are the 'ogres' of tomb king. But they are more expensive then normal ogres (or rat ogres, or kroxigors), but for the point cost, they're weaker. a toughness four is waaay to bad for the 20 extra points that you pay.
I'm not saying ushabti's are bad, because they're not, but you can't compare them to tomb guards, there's no competition.
Ushabti are more expensive cos they can have d3 wounds regenerated per turn, oh yeah they are also unbreakable, and they don't go last.
With numbers tomb guard are a lot more effective than ushabti, but ushabti are good for flanking... But in the end, a regiment of 24 tomb guard will always kick ass. Oh and btw if you think they are too slow put in your tomb king and cast incantation of urgency. Oh yeah if I ever were to getushabti I'd get 4 and flank, flank, flank!
Firstly I would like to drop a couple of bombshells:
1) Tomb Guard are one of the worst units in a TK army
2) Ushabti are one of the best units in a TK army (after chariots)
So in my mind there is no comparison...just let me explain.
Lets start with the less controversial one first..the ushabti
Ushati fill a crucail role in the tomb king army, that of providing a large number of decent weapon skill, high strength attacks. Attributes that only a Tomb King or Prince would posess. I mean, besides from the catapult or the expensive characters and bone giants, the only unit that strikes with a strength higher than 4 in your army are the ushabti. Rather depressing isn't it?
This however is where the ushabti stride in. The first thing that is often overlooked is Weapon Skill 4. The highest WS in our army apart from characters. This might not sound significant, but hitting nearly all other "ogre" units and most basic infantry on a 3 rather than a 4 makes a huge difference. Having Ws4 also requires most enemies to hit you on a 4 rather than a 3 as is the case with tombguard. This kind of offsets their armour save and toughness, although T4 is standrard across basically every other orgre model in the Warhammer world. A "natural, un-great weapon" modified strength of 6 is also unique in the orgre world, not striking last and still maintaining a high strength is awesome. A high strength that has a -3 armour save modifier attached to it, a high strength that gets rid of those basic annoying 4+ saves. Initative 3 and movement 5 (1 more than Tomb guard) is also nice, making them one the fastest units in your army. I3 gives u a chance to strike first against most other troops and orgres, while M5 gives u a potential 15inch charge range (more about this later). Being a construct also makes them one of the more resilant units in the army, and gives them opportunities to takes on units head on.
Wow, you might think... but how many points are they again? I agree that 65 points is a little high and may seem unappealing, but believe me they are worth every penny. I actually believe they are a little underpriced seeing what you can do with them in the magic phase. Would you not agree that orgres that are 100% healable,WS4, 3 natural S6 attacks, abiliity to form units and a 15 inch charge range is worth 65 point and only a special choice? Being healable is awesome, I have a Liche High Priest in my army and they become literally killing machines. A 15 inch charge range is not to be scoffed at either, can any other ogre unit beat this?
All these attributes allow ushabti to be the best flankers in a TK army. Lets look at statistics. I usually have a unit of 3 (4 become too unweildy and bulky), thats 9 attacks for a unit. Lets say my sponge unit of skeleton warriors with light armour and shields have withstood a lizardmen saurus charge. Then the ushabti charge in on the flank, 3's to hit, 2's to wound, no armour save. This results on average on 6 dead saurus per turn. Couple this with that fact that your unit takes away their rank bonus and you get +1 for flank charge, this gives you +8CR on average, enough to break any unit!!! They can similarly be used to crack high armoured stuff like knights and the like. Add in your skeletons (optional if u actually get the charge in the flank) and it makes it ushabti 1 vs. enemy -10000000000000.
Now that we know that ushabti are great flankers, let me propose that they can actually take units head on and still expect a draw if not a win. Lets imagine your ushabti can charge a unit of saruses ( you should as you have magic and failing that you charge 2 inches more than them). On average you will cause 6 casualties, they should get at least +5 for outnumbering, making you still win by one. Next turn you strike first, kill another 6 and then gradually wear them down until a point where you outnumber them. Likewise the same can be done to a unit of calvalry. I guess having a unit of 4 ushabti here help although this jacks up their points from being a manageable 195 to something over 250+, a little expensive for my liking. For units with a higher I, against units with limited number of attacks (ie 1), they should be ok, to strike back and still deal enough casualties to win the combat. And if things dont go as well as you hoped, healing them back sure helps things no ends, increasing the surviability of the unit, an ability unique to everything except for perhaps trolls. They are also great in taking out other ogre units, as they have high ws and natural strength.
The biggest things you have to worry about with ushabti is
2) getting charged
I have been able to work my way around this through the use of a skeleton bowmen screen, which I double team. Put the ushabti behind them forming a mobile screen wall. This protects them from bows and the like as well as bolt throwers which can normally rip through ushabti. If your shield becomes weakened, you can either heal them or just discard them. Either way when combat is looming, a good tactic is to suddenly move the archers away and then charging 15 inches in the magic phase, surprising the hell out of your opponent. Or even more sneakliy is to move the archers foward, angled away from your opponent. He has to either ignore the archers and therefore be flanked by them or he can charge the archers and hopefully then you can charge his flank with ushabti.
Another great use is to double team with your skeletons, where te skellies absorb attacks and the ushabti go for the kill.
So overall thats why I think uhsabti are one of the best units in the Tomb King army. They are one of the best of the orgre units across the warhammer world and are their true worth is even greater in a tomb king army who lack some hard hitting power. Anyway you gotta love the models....
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Ushabti are beautiful models and sometimes you can gain a morale victory on the grounds that your army is better dressed and looking sharp even in defeat.
Nightmare Creature great evil in female form who feeds upon... *screams* who's only weakness is *more screams*
I still think that tomb guards are better, they can heal back D6 wounds, so give them a banner of the undying legion and keep your priests nearby so that you don't have to worry about shooting or magic to much.
In combat, you have 6 attacks if you charge with 12" (wich is better then most of your opponent's movements). you hit on 4's and wound on 4's (against saurussus) so that would be 2 wounds and you have a chance of 50% that one of those wounds is a killing blow, so that would be one death.
you got a combat resolution of 6 already (if you have a unit of 25 guards, you'll outnumber unit's like saurussus).
he has gotten a combat resolution of 4, so he should do at least 3 wounds to win, he probably will, I have to admid, but, thanks to the good healing popwer of tomb guards, you can last him down (as long as you protect your flanks).
and you can just flank with your heavy horsemen (pretty cheap, but 24" charge range at max).
ushabti's are pretty good, but I use them in packs of four, because I have a defensive army, but if my opponent plays dark elves or dwarfs, ie. a shooting army, he'll win the battle because he shoots better then my archers and catapult, so I'll have to move forward, and then the chance to lose 1 or 2 ushabti's is pretty big.
If i remember correctly, Tomb Guard have M4, so that wouldn't be a 12" charge range.
And heavy horsemen have 16" at max, if they could have barding (cant remember) it's 14".
Aye CC you're right M4 for TG but no barding for the Heavy Cav. IMO I'd go for the Ushabti, they're harder with a higher M, S, WS. They can hold their own and are contructs so don't loose all the wounds, but they rule in flanking. Slap a unit of 4 in the flank of most units and watch them run, a high US, with their high S most troops won't be saving thus more dead. Fear will equal an autobreak so they rock.
The only thing I like about the TG is that they have the KB, this makes them elite and character killers. Not bad, but their WS isn't that good and their S is quite low. They seem to have a tough time against high WS troops, dwarves for example, but they aren't that good in my books. Though I do like the models and their fluff etc.
I know they have a M4, but, if you would have paid attention, you would have noticed that I was replying to Dorn.Euh.
If i remember correctly, Tomb Guard have M4, so that wouldn't be a 12" charge range.
and he was talking about the 15" charge of ushabti's
so, if you know your TK :rolleyes: you'd known that we were adding the incantation of urgency, so that's 4" in the movement face, and 8" charge in the magicfacewell, personaly I think that tomb guards are TO good for their points.The only thing I like about the TG is that they have the KB, this makes them elite and character killers. Not bad, but their WS isn't that good and their S is quite low.
they cost 4 points more then a skeleton warrior while they have a strenght, a toughness, a weaponskill, an initiative, a 4+ save instead of 5+, you heave the killing blow rule, you can take a magic banner if you want.
I mean, for just 4 points to 'upgrade' your skeleton warriors to such fighting machines, they're worth it.