7th Edition Wishlist

[DarkMithras]

I dissagree agree with the golems, we already have them... they are called Ushabthi

But it's not like the Tomb Kings have not borrowed from Jewish mythology before. The Casket of Auto-dispel is clearly the Ark of the Covenant.(It is odd that the Ark is linked to Egypt, when it was supposed to have been resting in the holy land ).

On this subject, I feel the object really is just usless. It is an anachronism from the 6th Ed. It's spell sipmply should't be able to be dispelled (or why cant you dispell the Lizardman thing?) And as for using it at stragtgic places? Why bother with a dispell scroll? Why not just take Magic Resistance and watch it soak up all your efforts.
I dont bother with one, I feel that the points can be used on Tomb Guard - much more worth it

I dont wanth better skellies, a skelly is a skelly. Just a points ajustment - just remember that VC's ones can march....for the same price they can march, in my eyes that is broken.
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Originally Posted by Chatawax

It might be interesting to have a few more artillery options rather than the standard SSC.

I myself am a bit of a purist. The Ancient Egyptians never had catapults and very few other seige machines (they avoided seige warfare like the plague). We would feel more like the Greek and Roman Empires.

My army has a large amount of foottroops (only about 200 skellies .....but the real tactics come from horse archers and chariots...our main warmachines

I just dont like the way these flimsy structures...that are supposed to be a platform for archers and javelins....slam into combat scattering foes they would shatter.
Tutankhamen died while riding one....so they should be changed to more or less armoured 'Lgt' horsemen.

But SSC are nice models and do a lot of damage so....*grumble grumble* I do use them now and then hehe

[Enigmatik1]

Well, I was under the impression that the 7th edition rules changes to the Casket made it not subject to Magic Resistance since the Light of Death affect isn't targeted. Effects that work in an area are no longer subject to MR according to the latest FAQ of the BRB.

I can kinda see your point however. I always use it and Tomb Guard. Honestly, I take those points from Skeletons, since I despise them greatly (because they blow). Count me as a very vocal member of the "swear at 'em" society.

Edit: I definitely see your point about the war machines and you're right. However, we already have expensive and inferior foot units, suspect cavalry (at best) and soft monsters for the most part. Skeletons don't work for me...ever. Against my common foes, they're just too soft and just give away tons of combat resolution either alone or in combined charges. What works in the list for me are the war machines (SSC/Casket), Tomb Guard, characters and Scorpions. Everything else is just too soft and/or ineffective in my local metagame atm.

[Wafflebob]

I don't really see the point in discussing historical accuracy. The tomb kings are a fantasy army. They are based on the Egyptians yes, but they are not Egyptians and should not be restricted to what the real Egyptians were limited to.

The fact is in warhammer battles are largely decided by melee. Even if you give light chariots dual linked or multiple shots, it would still be an absolutely garbage unit. 10 shots or 5 dual linked shots on a cheap core unit is going to average 1-2 wounds a turn. Unless they start making chariots shoot like 4-5 shots a turn they will never be effective as a shooting unit. Yes even if you do the cantabrian circle. You'll maybe drop a rank before they get into melee, if you are lucky. With a charge currently you could have destroyed that unit entirely on the first or second turn. Much more effective. Not realistic but then this is a fantasy game.

Anyway some ideas for improvements.

Skellies: I don't see them changing these guys much as VC has them largely the same. Make them come with light armor standard. Give skeleton archers the option to stand and shoot. Perhaps make the option of poisoned asp arrows for +1 point standard instead of a Khalida option. Heck, skinks get poison for free. Their hand weapon IMO should be javelins. Works like a normal hand weapon but also allows an 8" throw and can stand and shoot.

Heavy Cavalry: Heavy armor

Light Cavalry: Ability to feign fleeing.

Ushabti: Weapons should count as magical. Get MR(1) like the tomb scorption. I never understood why they didn't have this anyway. Should have a slight movement increase or the ability to march. I'd like to see either an armor increase or a minor ward save.

Bone Giant: The bone daddy needs a lot of work, both rule wise and fluff-wise. First of all, the idea that this is some kind of "sacred" workhorse mule that was converted for war is pretty lame. Who the hell wants to spend 200 points to take a modified crane to war? This thing should be the end-all be-all of tomb kings. You see these guys in battle, the Tomb Kings are pissed off. First off, he needs an attack chart. Like regular giants and the skaven abomination. I'm thinking stuff like
1-2 Unstoppable Assault: Yes, not just on a charge, bone daddy can do this any round of combat.
3-4 Cloud of locusts: The bone giant opens it's giant maw and roars, releasing a cloud of ravenous locusts onto the unit it is engaged with. 3d6 str 2 hits with no armor saves.
5-6 Reaper: Like the DoE, the bone giant sweeps it's giant blades across the battle lines, dealing 2 auto-hits to each model in base contact.

Weapons should be magical, should have MR of at least 1, Large Target, causes terror, all that good stuff.

Casket of Souls Get rid of the stupid rare choice and make it 200 points already.

Magic
We need a boost. I love our incantations, but I think we could do better. I think the extra move spell and the extra attack spell should be an ability all characters get. Like, not even an incantion. All character models get this ability, it can be used once a turn and is not dispellable. It's done through force of will, not magic and cannot be stopped. I think this is only really balanced if we still do not have an ability to march though.

Kings, princes and lich priests should all have access to the healing incantation like Vampire counts do.

Couple more offensive spells for the lich priests would be nice. Summon sandstorms or swarms of locusts, make the sands suck enemy units down, pinning them in place for a turn.

I can't think of too much I'd like to see added. Maybe some mummified monster mounts for the characters? Small sphinxes or griffons?
Another rare choice might be nice.

[DarkMithras]

[QUOTE=Wafflebob;1585894]I don't really see the point in discussing historical accuracy. The tomb kings are a fantasy army. QUOTE]

I know that I was just saying I would like changed to chariots....and that we really dont need warmachines. Obviously the TK's are a fantasy army, but based on pseudohistirical stuff
Same way as the Empire is a good representation of a 16th century Germanic army. Start giving them chariots and catapults and it would offset the 'feel' of the army. Same with us really. We need an historical base to bu8ild upon.....then throw it out the window and get stuck in to some fatastical stuff

Originally Posted by Wafflebob

Even if you give light chariots dual linked or multiple shots... Yes even if you do the cantabrian circle. You'll maybe drop a rank before they get into melee, if you are lucky.
.

Didn't mean the chariots formed the circle thats for horse archers
But yeah, as the chariots currently stand...I do see your point and, yeah, lets keep them how they are (they do break ranks of Saurus Warriors after all)


Dont want lght armour skellies...we have good skellies
fiegn hit and run for horses is a dman good idea.....that is part of the tactics of the Circle
You would form a circle, run in ring in front of the enemy peppering them with shots....then 'flee' when they charged. regroup and fire again at the knackered enemy
hehe

[Enigmatik1]

Originally Posted by Wafflebob

Skellies: I don't see them changing these guys much as VC has them largely the same. Make them come with light armor standard. Give skeleton archers the option to stand and shoot. Perhaps make the option of poisoned asp arrows for +1 point standard instead of a Khalida option. Heck, skinks get poison for free. Their hand weapon IMO should be javelins. Works like a normal hand weapon but also allows an 8" throw and can stand and shoot.

Good points/ideas. I should rephrase my stance, I have no issue with Skeleton Archers, aside from needing a special character to get Poisoned Attacks. It's the ones that are supposed to be in combat that I despise.

At any rate, comparing combat skeletons between Tomb Kings and Vampire Counts is in no way a fair comparison. When you consider:

-They're cheaper (NO! Bad GW...NO! *smacks GW with newspaper on the nose*)
-They're better at raising than TK (which I'm fine with)
-Van Hels Danse Macabre is superior to both Righteous Smiting and Urgency

What really pushes this difference to the extreme, however, is the Helm of Command. This item used in conjunction with Danse, eliminates the two massive weaknesses of skeletons in close combat: inaccuracy and speed. Not only are they attacking on WS6-7 instead of 2, they get to strike first (except against other ASF units with higher Initiative ) and get to re-roll misses, which are much less likely with WS7. Who cares if you get an extra attack if you're likely to miss anyway.

That's why I believe our skeletons should just be somewhat better while still being more expensive, especially when the unit is led by a character.

[Wafflebob]

Yeah, our skellies definitely need a boost in some form or another.

Aren't most of our units supposed to still be sentient? VCs just raise mindless thralls, hence the low base scores but I seem to remember reading that tomb kings skeletons are "disciplined". They aren't as good off as the tomb guard and princes and kings are as they weren't mummified but I think they are still supposed to be relatively intelligent.

[DarkMithras]

We DONT need better skellies. I have won more games with block units of 40 (5 ranks of than I ever have with any other army......and no it's not 1 game
I once had a 14 game undefeated streak. Mainly because my opponents were used to facing contruct armies or ones that heavily relied on the SSC firing twice a turn.

Then in come an army with 120 skellies....3 block units of 40....Liches spamming raise spells. The damn units just never fell, and even when charged in teh rear, anything short of Chaos Knights will be stuck for turn after turn killing them while my chariots mop up.

...

Then came the rulebook creep followed by some pretty sick armies.

For the same price I was facing the same skellies, only they could march (didn't beat me in the magic phase (even considering I am getting between 8 to 9 spells a turn)
Some coffin that flies around laying entire flanks to waste yeeaaaaah right.
Thralls that ride steeds....yada yada yada
Some 'engine of the blag' that tears apart anything it touches....oh, and did I mention it is carried by a fraggin stegadon!!! Cant dispell it either (And undead are buggered)
Heck, why not just give a boner giant a casket of souls to carry on his shoulders....oh and a liche to use it.
Cant see it happening.

So, imo, we dont really NEED any new stuff....the other damned books need a serious rethink. VC's need to be toned down, not us get even better. Otherwise where will it stop?!?!?

8th edition Skellies on god mode...always marches, immune to taking wounds....WS7....damn where will it stop?

All we need is a couple of simple tweaks, nothing to harsh (we are not loosing out that badly, we still win games). And make out Casket of Fail immune to disppelling like other thingamajigs of its caliber.
Boy that was a rant

[Enigmatik1]

Originally Posted by DarkMithras

We DONT need better skellies. I have won more games with block units of 40 (5 ranks of than I ever have with any other army......and no it's not 1 game
I once had a 14 game undefeated streak. Mainly because my opponents were used to facing contruct armies or ones that heavily relied on the SSC firing twice a turn.

Then in come an army with 120 skellies....3 block units of 40....Liches spamming raise spells. The damn units just never fell, and even when charged in teh rear, anything short of Chaos Knights will be stuck for turn after turn killing them while my chariots mop up.

Come on, Dark, my man. You and I both know that 120 skeletons is more than half your army at 2k (we always play 2k games in my circle). That's entirely too much considering how expensive our characters are. But I can see how a massive shift in what you're fielding can throw off an opponent.

I rely heavily on my Tomb Guard unit and my Chariots. In fact, those are usually the only things I have left on the board at the end of a game. If it's a Skeleton derivative and not on a Chariot, it's always gone by turn 3. I've never lost a full rank off of a TG unit and they've taken out/broken/run down just about everything that's been thrown at them.

Originally Posted by DarkMithras

Then came the rulebook creep followed by some pretty sick armies.

For the same price I was facing the same skellies, only they could march (didn't beat me in the magic phase (even considering I am getting between 8 to 9 spells a turn)
Some coffin that flies around laying entire flanks to waste yeeaaaaah right.
Thralls that ride steeds....yada yada yada
Some 'engine of the blag' that tears apart anything it touches....oh, and did I mention it is carried by a fraggin stegadon!!! Cant dispell it either (And undead are buggered)
Heck, why not just give a boner giant a casket of souls to carry on his shoulders....oh and a liche to use it.
Cant see it happening.

So, imo, we dont really NEED any new stuff....the other damned books need a serious rethink. VC's need to be toned down, not us get even better. Otherwise where will it stop?!?!?

But we all know that this isn't going to happen. I'd prefer it did myself, but isn't going to. That's the whole point, I don't think GW wants it to stop. Too many people are hardcore powergamers (I think) that will jump on the latest OTT army book and start buying/building new armies for the competitive/tournament scene. I often wonder who are the largest buyers of miniatures/books: WAAC powergamers or the casual groups that play in their buds basements and living areas?

Originally Posted by DarkMithras

8th edition Skellies on god mode...always marches, immune to taking wounds....WS7....damn where will it stop?

Who's talking about 8th edition? This is what the current VC skeleton can do for a point less per model than ours, discounting the cost of the Helm of Command. Do I want all this nonsense for our skeletons? No.

What I do want is to be able to put down a block of 20-25 and have them actually be able to contribute. But this is a deficiency of most Core infantry not just ours. It's exacerbated for me because in my local metagame, I don't face units (other than Skaven slaves) that Skeletons have a prayer of doing anything to in combat. They are either immune/resistant to Fear while being much better in combat so no autobreaking and are generally capable of generating enough SCR to severely cripple if not completely destroy said unit.

Originally Posted by DarkMithras

All we need is a couple of simple tweaks, nothing to harsh (we are not loosing out that badly, we still win games). And make out Casket of Fail immune to disppelling like other thingamajigs of its caliber.
Boy that was a rant

Ranting is good for the soul. I feel about Tomb Guard the way you feel about Skeletons apparently and there isn't anything wrong with that. I just want viable options. To me, Skeletons are not viable and I can only really think from my own perspective (one of my many limitations) I DO NOT want overpowered nonsense, tricky dance moves or high-impact gyrations. Just give me models that can do what they're supposed to do at a fair price and I'm good. I simply don't feel like we get this with skeletons in their current incarnation.

/salute

[DarkMithras]

Originally Posted by Enigmatik1

Come on, Dark, my man. You and I both know that 120 skeletons is more than half your army at 2k (we always play 2k games in my circle). That's entirely too much considering how expensive our characters are. But I can see how a massive shift in what you're fielding can throw off an opponent.

hehe, aye. And 120 skellies is enough to throw many opponents into shock
Went against a 'skink' army once, I just reformed the unitgs and made a looooong line covering froim one table edge to another then walked towards them...easy victoy. hehe
I adopted the 120 skelly tactic mainly due to player with tiny (laughable) forces and ones with a tremendous amount of fire power (empire and wood elves....gits ) I justy used to run out of models.

Tomb guard are just as good as skellies when taking a hit from a cannon and even a skelly can beat Hans Von Swordmann in combat 20 TG are roughtly same price as 40 skellies (well, sort of ish ....errr) 120 skellies is not unbeatable....but I have just had good luck with them so far

Originally Posted by Enigmatik1

I'd prefer it did myself, but isn't going to. That's the whole point, I don't think GW wants it to stop. Too many people are hardcore powergamers (I think) that will jump on the latest OTT army book and start buying/building new armies for the competitive/tournament scene.

yeah I know....but I can wish

Originally Posted by Enigmatik1

What I do want is to be able to put down a block of 20-25 and have them actually be able to contribute. But this is a deficiency of most Core infantry not just ours. It's exacerbated for me because in my local metagame, I don't face units (other than Skaven slaves) that Skeletons have a prayer of doing anything to in combat. They are either immune/resistant to Fear while being much better in combat so no autobreaking and are generally capable of generating enough SCR to severely cripple if not completely destroy said unit.

damn, your not supposed to 'kill' things with skellies they are a hold up unit until your heavies charge in hence the large numbers. We cant break, sont show fear. On the subject of fear...whats a unit of 25 skellies going to do? Even if you did win the combat, theyt would stand firm.
I have 5 rank bonus....I WILL outnumber the enemy. With banner I am on 7 combat res already. I haven't even rolled a dice yet. My ranks are 8 wide. I have to lose 3 of the buggers to even consider lolosing a rank. They have spears, so thats 2 ranks of 8 hitting back (I rely on the 2nd rank).
Most people have units of 20...so I have extra rank on theirs, outnumber. Shoul;d they loose 1 model they are a heavy underdog.
Should I win the combat by one measily didt....enemy are autobroken.Dwarves LD9....lol. If they cant break. chariots will be there soon. And King Shortentwoplank rides with the chariots, which is nice. (Well he is a Prince, as you said, I sort of have to skimp on the rest of the army )

Thats the theory and it doesn't always happen. Got utterly pwned damn wood elves (led by the elf equivalent of benny ninja ) they just legged it through my ranks and took me from behind.....typical charged heiropig in his cavalry and I was rogered silly
but against small armies and maxishooty.....I do much much better