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My buddy plays High elves and is thinking about using a dragon, I looked at the stats of the Star dragon and peed a little. So my question is simple with all the unit available to us what is the best way to kill or even delay it?
I believe if you look through the threads you will find one that Luther Hex wrote about taking on dragons...
The simple gist is that you use large blocks on skeletons with champions to lock it into combat... works best with 2 blocks, then you challenge the dragon and rider with the champion... it kills the champion you lose a few models to combat res and then in your next magic phase you raise them back again... as the champ is raised first.
While doing this you use rightous smiting to have a few attacks at the dragon and rider in your magic phase and theoretcially you will eventually beat it down...
There is nothing more annoying when your Wyches with Plasma Grenades get "Always strikes First" for their combat drugs!
Ya know, provided that the HE don't have much magic resistance and let that essential champ raising spell through. And that he has no other units that decide to help the expensive as hell dragon out and charge the flank of your skellies. And that he lets his 20" movement dragon get into the front of a slow moving unbreakable-raisable unit in the first place, rather than the flank or rear. Then you're gold.
Tool up a King to face him, something like blade of mourning, blade of setep or even flail of skulls. Have it in a big unit for static combat res. Maybe even TG since they could KB the rider. The weak point of the star dragon is most definitely the elf on top. He can either go offensive, and have basically no armour, or go defensive and only have a lance or halberd. I'd take 2 SSC's, use smiting on both and try to take it down from range in the first turn or so. The new dragon has a pretty long base so it shouldn't be too hard to clip it. It is more than a third of the army in 2k, so definitely worth focusing on.
Well to start with, if you read the High elf faq, the dragon rider, and the dragon are immune to the effects of flaming attacks due to dragon armour, so they are immune to the Screaming skull catapult. If you are playing a high elf player retarded enough to sit his dragon near a big slow combat block or a tooled up king then it probably isnt a problem anyway. Basically, against a decent player with a star dragon, he is going to target your vulnerable units on the flanks as there is no way to hurt him at range. You are pretty much screwed but try to kill the rest of his army, get some vps thats way as Tomb Kings have no effective way to take down a dragon with dragon armour.
Options for dealing with Dragons:
- Drown it with skellies and a resurrectable Challenge Champion
- Bulk up a King. The HE should fall fast. The monster reaction test could be fun. If need be, pound the Dragon too. Use Flying King + MWBD if you need to catch it, or in a Chariot maybe.
- SSC (Non flame retardant dragons only)
- Mass (seriously... LOTS) of bows.
Last edited by Phoenix; June 28th, 2008 at 20:36.
I actually forgot about dragon armour, being a HE player as well as TK in all the lists I have made with a dragon I haven't given the rider dragon armour, as there are other things I have preferred him to have. Certainly if he does have dragon armour then SSC's won't help, they would still be useful to target other units in the army though.Originally Posted by stealth
The trick is our infantry moves faster and is actually more manoueverable than almost any foot infantry in the game, our units can reform and then charge in the movement phase, or charge upto 12" with move and magic charge, this can catch alot of opponents out, also if you keep your units together you are much more likely to put yourself in a position to take advantage of counter charges.
This is an example of how i would seek to deal with the star dragon, bait it with a chariot unit (this usually is the best unit to use as it poses quite a threat to fragile HE infantry as impact hits nullify ASF to some degree) by moving it out about 8" from your line. If the Dragon charges it, destroys and overruns the unit, and is now within charge range, if it doesnt overrun it should be in charge range of your infantry and if it doesnt charge for fear of the counter charge you have nullified the threat for a turn and your chariots may be free to make further nuisance of themselves.
Be wary of the following tactics used by good players:
Wow, went on longer than i had anticipated, the key points are don't panic, deploy well and remember if it isnt in combat and not in range for its breath attack(for fear of the counter charge) its not going to earn its points back and you can get on with killing the rest of his army, carefully of course, 20" is a long charge range after all.
- Flanking dragons can ruin your day, they can see multiple units due to large monster status, right along your battle line. This is where positioning becomes really important. if you KEEP THE UNITS CLOSE TOGETHER the long-based dragon model will not be able to land and therefore cannot charge. Also move challenging champions to the appropriate position to allow them to issue a challenge should the unit be charged!
- Dragons are great at destroying support units, by doing so they gradually recoup their costs and support the rest of their army at the same time, dont give them easy vp's, if you are going to lose something make sure that its loss will allow you to counter charge and pin the beast in combat with something that has good static combat resolution. The best way to do this KEEP THE UNITS CLOSE TOGETHER!
- High wound and Toughness models often dont recieve the amount of firepower they deserve as it seems like wasted shooting, this is a misconception, dragons can be wounded by massed bowfire and riders can as well. Also being large targets they can be seen by everyone in a ranked up unit so a bow armed 5x4 unit of skellies still gets 20 shots against it per turn of shooting without compromising their static res!
- Don't spend too much time worrying about it and neglect the rest of his army, if you follow the above instructions you will limit its effectiveness massively, spend your SSC shots on the infantry blocks, Scorpion his mages, slow down his troops with carrion to limit the possibility of combined charges.
- Dont give him the opportunity to combine charges in the flank and front of a ranked infantry unit, a dragon+rider in flank and cavalry in the front is very capable of shredding a 20 strong skellie unit.
- Dont deploy units on the back edge of the board, if the dragon can overrun through your line and escape off the board you can't effect a countercharge v.easily. If you deploy 12" on he cant land behind you without fear of being countercharged and he can't overrun with any certainty of fleeing the board, 11" being the upper average on three dice which again leaves him in dangerous no-mans land.
How do you expect to defeat me when I am forever and you are just a man...
A little bit of threadomancy here, but here goes.
My wood elf-playing friend is going to get a dragon. I guess what you, LOTHAR-HEX, said about the HE star dragon goes for the wood elf dragon as well; Or are there some other tactics I can use against it? perhaps it isn't immune to flaming weapons so the SSC can be an effective weapon against it?
Anything else I should think about?
And what's the best gear for a tomb king to take out a dragon? I initially thought that the destroyer of eternities should work out well, with the str 7 hits on both the rider and the dragon if I so wish, but it wasn't mentioned in the thread at all. So is the flail of skulls a better alternative? I kind of feel like I need the extra str against a dragon.
"I have seen you humans, trying to forge an Empire in the name of a corpse"
WE riders are infinitely easier to take down. If you can get a unit of Carrion moving twice, you can direct all attacks on the rider, and WEs aren't well known for having good armour. Another bonus is that Star Dragons are far harder to kill than Forest Dragons.
But the SSC would also be effective if you can hit it.
Flail of Skulls wouldn't be too bad, just watch for the Amber Pendant- it will desecrate ASF. Personally, I'd be worried about claiming the Dragon (as I've already mentioned) as WE characters won't win any prizes for resilience any time soon. Just some items can prove painful (like the Oaken Armour granting Regeneration, or the Armour of the Fey, giving a 4++ save vs magic attacks).
WE dragons have no stupid Flaming immunity rules, so an SSC should be fine for nailing them.
If he does reach combat with your King, then if you want to kill the Dragon, FoSkulls should do it, and use the Collar or Ankhra for defence. Should do ok for taking out the rider too, given the lack of Elf armour.
Alternatively, send some Ushabti into it