Common points made when commenting on lists

[Phoenix]

Originally Posted by Orthanus

Firstly thankyou for your speed reply, its nice to see my opinion is heard-out too.

I would like to ask you about a style of play called Anvil and Hammer. The idea is to take a 30-man block of skeletons with full command, h/w shields and banner of undying legion as an "anvil" unit. You then take a unit of chariots, a tomb scorpion, or even a unit of tomb guard with a champion and a "Hammer" unit. You charge/ get charged with the unit of skeletons who play a battle of attrician (spelling again) with enemy until in the next turn when the "Hammer" unit smashes from side or rear. This does serious damage and i want your opinion as to whether it could be a viable tactic in games as low as 1000pts, where our poor skeleton's necessity for general and hiero dominate the points. Assuming this is effective would this not easily win back the 100 points lost assuming the unit dies. Also in small battles of 1000pts i see no problem as numbers will be few and casting concentrated


P.s. being new to this, could u explain the credit system, i have 238 at the moment.

This kind of thing may be of more use in the ''Beginners Guide to TK'' thread, so i may look at moving it if thats ok with you?

But yeah, basically at 1K, you're right in that tghe TP+LP dominate your selection. And personally, i always recommend a second Priest too, otherwise your magic is all but nullified. So given that comes to... 375pts with standard gear included, lets look at the rest:

Ideally youll want 24 skellies (to add the Prince to) No BotUL available yet (unless you want to splash out on T.Guard?) and youll want FC, bringing the unit to 240ish.

Youll need a second core minimum, a single Tomb Swarm is your cheapest option

So youll have about 380pts left. Now, Chariots are a nice cheap hammer, but they just wont always have the necessary punch to get through decent armour. hence im gonna work this with 3 Ushabti.

140pts left Pretty much limiting you to 1 more selection from:
3 Chariots
1 Scorp (+1 swarm base)
3-5 Carrion (+0-1 swarm base)
SSC + upgrade/swarm base

Personally i never leave home withoutn an SSC, so for me, the list would look like this:

Prince w/ Collar + GW
Hiero w/ Cloak
Priest
24 Skellies w/ HW/S/LA + FC
2 Tomb Swarms
3 Ushabti
1 SSC

A tad small maybe, but should be effective against the right opposition.


Oh, and finally, Credits: http://www.librarium-online.com/foru...dit-stuff.html

[DukeGriswold]

Just because you see three dosen't mean its a good idea, however if im in a 2k list i like to do put two units of 3 just to have more punishment out on the table, i also like to field skellie archers in units of ten, they aren't for combat so make em small each unit can fire at a different target so you can decide as you go if you want skaven slaves to take ten, twenty, thrity, or fourty shots. with incantations its harder to make them shoot again, but they all get to shoot once, so count on what you KNOW they will do not what you think you may pull off. its to unreliable to put your faith in geting 40 archers to shoot eighty shots

[eirik]

I seem to be te only one liking closecombat skellies.
a unit of 20 skellies with HW and shields can take quite a punch against certain races. if you put in a tomb prince and the banner of regeration they can take a lot of damage and hold up a lot of units wich alows you to flank with you chariots. This doesn't work as good against all races though and the banner might be better off elsewhere

[DarkMithras]

I always take spearmen. Heck I swear by em.
At 9 points a model they seem expensive but in large units (at least 30 - I take a full 40 ) they are devestating.And you always, always chake full command.
This means you get CR of 5 (3 extra ranks, standard, and outnumber...you will outnumber trust me...even vs a gunline army) The enemy wont have full ranks cos you will have made sure of it, so they are already at a disadvantage. If a prince in there...he will sway the balance further in your favour.

Formation?
Don't put them in ranks of 5...make it atleast 7 wide (mine are 8x5). Now as most armies have 5 in the first rank, you have two extra diagnal attacks on them...if they charge you also get two ranks. Yeah, so what if they are St-3....bow are also st-3...all a 4+ imo.

Champions? Damn right.
There will always be a time when you don't want you lich standing like a lemon in the open. So you make him join a unit. You know that Chaos hero? Well Without a champ, he will challenge your Liche are tear him to buggery.
Sure you can decline, go to the back, but once the combat had been resolved you'll only be back in combat again. And Luthor Von Uberblagger has taken his agression out on some skellies and (say 4) and you are going to loose more as they crumble.
But the champion take a challenge, sure he will lose by 4 (argument sake), but you have only lost 1 model + crumbling skellies. Not 4 models + crumbling skellies.

Vs hand weapons?
A 5+ save in combat or an extra rank of attacks...my money is on the attacks as they have killing potential. A save won't kill enemy models. But idealy a general should take both, and toss in some archers with them.

[Phoenix]

Originally Posted by DarkMithras

Vs hand weapons?
A 5+ save in combat or an extra rank of attacks...my money is on the attacks as they have killing potential. A save won't kill enemy models. But idealy a general should take both, and toss in some archers with them.

The save you get with HW/S is 4+. Aside from that, you make a good argument And i wont deny it, ive seen similar things in VC, only over there its a bit more efficient lol.

[DarkMithras]

Originally Posted by Phoenix

The save you get with HW/S is 4+.

Shield +1
HW/S +1
= 5+

to get 4+ you have to buy lgt armour at +1 pts a model...same price as spearmen in that case.

[Orthanus]

Having 2 ranks attacking is nice, but it doesn't happen when you charge. Charging is VITAL to us skele users because we have crap initiative and are generally rubbish so need the first attack to thin numbers and try and get a combat victory. There is nothing better than taking a block of sword and board skeles, doing a bit of damage, taking none back, outnumbering them and winning combat: they leg it auto. That squad will at some point turn around and then you can repeat.

On round 1 having charged spear skeles are hw+shield skeles with worse armour. Obviously as an attrician force you do want spear skeles, but they die so damn quick you better have liche hanging round.

And do remember that skeles (or how I use them) aren't meant to do the damage. They are meant to make an enemy leg it or hold them up. It is then that a tomb scorpian slams into the back of the unit and butchers it mercilessly *dissolves into cruel laughter then coughs, regaining himself*

So in summery 24 sword and board skeles + TP with spear of Anatarak+ BoUL+ liche priest = bloody invincible but going nowhere.... whereas 24 sword and board skeles + TP with spear of Anatarak+ BoUL+ liche priest with tomb scorpian creeping round the back of the unit = merciless slaugher. This is why sword and board skeles win!

[DarkMithras]

Originally Posted by Orthanus

Having 2 ranks attacking is nice, but it doesn't happen when you charge.

Thats why I don't charge with spearmen...thats the sowrdsman's job. Idealy a general should have both units. Spearmen are used to deny a part of the battlefield or hold a flank while the rest of teh army gets to work.

Originally Posted by Orthanus

Obviously as an attrician force you do want spear skeles, but they die so damn quick you better have liche hanging round.

Yeah. I have a block unit of 40....I don't belive skellies should be in units as small as 25, by the time the enemy has finished with them they won't outnumber. We rely on numbers.
My 40 skell's held up a units of saurus warriors for 3 game turns teh other day (thats 6 combat rounds)...I broke them once my Tomb Guard weighed in (after defeating the Temple Guard).

Originally Posted by Orthanus

24 sword and board skeles + TP with spear of Anatarak+ BoUL+ liche priest
24 sword and board skeles + TP with spear of Anatarak+ BoUL+ liche priest with tomb scorpian creeping round the back of the unit = merciless slaugher. This is why sword and board skeles win!

Tooooo many eggs in one basket imo. And the unit is very small. But hey, everyone has their own tactics and I'm sure you army back this up
I have 40 skellies with....full command....thats it. As I take a king a uni will have the banner of 'summon skellies'. A liche is always in range just in case. One unit has a prince.
My spear of anatarak is in the chariots...but my rank and file skell's can hold their own for a good few turns. But hey, diffrent armies have diffrent tactics.
But when the armies used to smaller units see 3 big blocks of 40 skellies appear...they tend to falter as the player panicks.

But swordsmen are vital also. They are the agressive combat guys. As I said earleir, a general should take both.

[Nagash]

According to me, EVERY TK army would consist of skellie bowmen. Via battle experience, a long time ago, I've figured out that one of the greatest benefits in the TK army is their arrows that can't be negated to hit on less than 5+. Shooting units that cause fear (or even terror if joined by a TP with DMoK) to the enemy SHALL be feared, and even MORE feared when they via magic got the ability to shoot twice a turn. In fact, when I play VC (as I also do), the ranged combat and the reliable Incantations are the things I miss the most .

In most of my units I prefer taking only a Musician. As written before it is a good way to ensure less wounds taken, for the cost of 5 pts.
The champ-option can come in handy if a character is supposed to join the unit or if the units purpose IS to hold up another hard-hitting unit with champ or char.
The Standard is kind of over-valued too. As Phoenix recently have written, the standard will give the enemy a bonus of 100 VP, a points value that can turn to be a loss in the end. Otherwise, if the standard is going to have any heavy part in the tactic (which is individuall depending on which player who plays TK and which army this player is going to face) it can truly be worth it... But before taking any Standards to field, count on the facts already written.




Knowledge is for everyone...

[The Broodlord]

Why is every one against standards? If you have one in a unit then you get +1CR and if the standard is with the unit and it dies they get no VP ( they have to kill him the break the unit). anyway if the standard is used twice then its points are more then made back.