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Pg 11 of the new vampire count book essential says that the priest kings beat the vampires and nagashes legions. Also on the same page it says something about us having powerful weapons.
Do you think our fluff translate well into the game? I personally do not think so and heres why.
When I read the description of other units units and then look at their stats I say things like wow the blood knights might be the most fearsome fighters in the world. I read our fluff and look at their stats and look like this
For example the tomb guard the best soldiers in Nehekhara, the ones that would have played the most vital roll in kicking Nagash out and beating the vampires, has a ws of 3. I dont have to argue this point just turn to page 4 of the rulebook it does it for me. One of the biggest human civilizations ever, who built great monuments and pyramids could only make light armour. The grave guard has the finest armour which translate to light armour on the battlefield. The tomb kings ultimate warrior, trusted champion is the icon bearer. I can think of champions who have better stats. To everyone that takes a muscian and thinks ten points is not alot, compare the wight king of the vampires with tomb king's icon bearer.
The ushabti are suppose to inspire your soldiers because they are made in the image of gods. Light armour and a shield has a better save then our ushabti, the priest who built those things would be ashame(of the stats). While we are on the topic of gods, the blessed arrow of the asp thing which allows us to always hit on a certain roll, well please direct the arrow to an eye so i can cause a wound.
I want everyone that stole something from our tombs to bring our stuff back, because we have very few items that we can take advantage of. Have you ever read a discussion on how do you kit your lord and thought this conversation will never happen with us.
Dont misunderstand what i am trying to say here we have alot of unique abilities and we can compete and beat any other army its just that we dont have some of the things most armies have that makes the game enjoyable. We dont have a true heavy calvary unit, we dont have the versatillity of character creation, and we dont have monsters we can ride to battle on.
I just dont get it, Settra took control of Nehekhara around the same time the elves civil war was going on, we thrived during this time while practicing magic so why the lack of equiptment. When I look at other army books items I get a little jealous. A king going to battle on a chariot(even though his strength is more powerful than the vehicle) is cool, but a king going to battle on a chariot with light armour doesnt make since to me. I rule a great civilization but the best armour save I the King can get is a 2 plus.
What do you guys think?
I don't play tomb kings, but do enjoy the concept. The thing with heavy armour is, I think, that it has no place in the desert. With the general heat and lack of water, not very many warriors would be walking around in a giant tin can ala brettonnia - it just wouldn't be practical.
And while the tomb guard are the best warriors you have to take into consideration that they are also hundreds (thousands?) of years dead. Their skills are just the memory of what they used to be.
Dovie'andi se tovya sagain (It's time to roll the dice)- Mattrim Cauthon
Yes, it is hard to imagine heavy armour out their in the sun but lower weapon skill because of age is unfair. Every thing in the warhammer world gets stronger with age vampires, slann, dragons, dwarves, and orcs the list goes on. Their age should make them better in combat as they had to rely more on skill to kill things. Not the perfect sword crafted by dwarves.
Pretty much every unit/army pales compared to the descriptions in the books when you look at stats. Most of the armies are the greatest and are going to rule the world according to their own book, then get belted in other books. It is just to inspire people to play the army, and most armies do have the potential to be great.
We may not have true heavy cavalry, but there are other armies that don't either. Skaven and Dwarfs have no cavalry whatsoever, nor do Ogres. Dark Elf CoKs are widely considered not worth it anymore, as are O&G boar riders. And a complete lack of heavy armour I think makes sense due to the desert reasons above.
But you are right that our stats do seem crap compared to the descriptions in the book. Really Ushabti are tough due to their high toughness and multiple wounds, so I think they are fine. Tomb Guard really need to be supped up a bit, especially compared to the current HE elite and the VC Grave Guard. The characters need to be reworked, since icon bearers are crap there is very little variation in them. Our cavalry, even as light cav, is pretty rubbish. So there are a few things that could use some modifications.
Overall we are still a pretty competative army though, it is the ability of the entire army to work together that makes it strong, and our relentless magic supporting the whole army.
Edit:I don't think it is so much the age factor. More that back then they were alive and skilled warriors. As a rule, undead are animated by the magic of their lords so don't really perform all that well.Originally Posted by Ckok
Not exactly. Yes a lot of things get harder the longer the live (or unlive) but skeletons are re-animated remains - unthinking automatons. What skill they possessed in life cannot be transferred to the skeletal remains of the warrior - magic can only do so much in hte place of tendons, muscle and brains. What skill at arms they bear now is naught but a mere shadow of what they had in real life - the lingering memmory in the very bones of great warriors.
Dovie'andi se tovya sagain (It's time to roll the dice)- Mattrim Cauthon
Thats why I love this forum, vets are always there to explain things. What about our items do you think they have under powered us here aswell?
Last edited by CKO; September 17th, 2008 at 05:46.
To be honest, it has been a long time since I have written a TK army list so I am a bit hazy on the items. We did have some good items available to us and some good and varied combos from the jar and plaques on priests to give them better magic to the flying king who can be in combat turn 1. I did find the magic weapons a bit lacking though, and certainly compared to the new books we could use a few more items and soe more powerful/less expensive.
A lot of armies are getting abilities aside from items which is a big boost as well; girfts of Khaine for DE, bloodline powers for vamps (very powerful), daemonic gifts, the HE lost their honours this edition unfortunately. But overall quite a few new armies are getting unique things like that, perhaps we could benefit from a similar system.
It would be nice if we could give our characters a nice impressive mount; a centrepiece for the army artistically, and even though I want a nifty mount that can fly and breath lava, I still wouldn't use it in my army.
The thing about TK is that our stats are a LOT better than they appear. If you consider we NEVER run, and are never affected by Terror or Stupidity, that effectively gives us a Leadership of 12 across the board... plus, add an attack to every unit across the board, because a determined TK general can almost guarantee an extra attack using incantations if need be.
Plus, do you know how often other armies get to move and charge in the same turn? Flyers that can cross 40" in Turn One? At long-range, shooting at hard cover, after moving, we effectively have BS 1!
I admit I was frustrated at first when I found that stat-to-stat none of my army matched up to my friends' Chaos/Elves/Dwarves, but I accepted it when I continued to win the majority of our battles.
actually we can be affected by stupidity. Stupidity isn't covered by being ItP, so if a Keeper of Secrets casts the slaaneshi spell that causes stupidity, it does effect our units.
"I am the architect of fate!"
The armies of Nehekhara were very powerful in life. However, undead tend to be a bit worse than living fighters by their nature. Also, note that (unless you're playing a Lustria game, in which case its very hard to lose with Lizzies) Warhammer does not take into account location and surroundings etc.
Say each army had rules for its homelands, and you rolled for where to play at the start of the game. TKs would be in the desert.. and hence rules could be imposed such as if a models save is 3+ or better, it gets -1 to its movement. Or non TK units can't march 2 turns in a row (both of these due to the heat of which they probably arent used to)
Ofcourse, to compensate, the opposing army gets, say, 10% extra points to spend.
ALl in all, TK fluff is nice, is reflected well in the army, but their elite doesnt stand up to other armies elite so well as conditions arent taken into account.
(And a note to any of those thieves from GW, if you read this and steal my idea, i expect royalties damnit! )